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#238089 - 12/28/11 02:39 AM Re: PLB Rescue Statistics? [Re: ponder]
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2209
Loc: NE Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: ponder
The only format that is VERBALLY understood is Deg.decimal degrees. Do not try to communicate with any type of chopper with anything except degrees and decimal degrees.


Side point: That's kind of ironic. Just a three weeks ago, while writing down coordinates in Germany - trying to figure out where the rental car place was at the Frankfurt airport, I decided to switch to using decimal degrees for my coordinates since they were sooo much easier. A bit of research suggested that good form is to use at least 5 decimal places, or:

DD.ddddd, -DD.ddddd

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#238090 - 12/28/11 02:49 AM Re: PLB Rescue Statistics? [Re: KenK]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
I have the GPS in my ditch survival vest preloaded with aviation navigation aids as waypoints. The idea is to be able to talk to the CG helo on marine VHF channel 16 and give the pilot a TACAN fix. Although the PLB fix thru COSPAS-SARSAT should be even closer.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#238094 - 12/28/11 05:07 AM Re: PLB Rescue Statistics? [Re: KenK]
thseng Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 900
Loc: NW NJ
Originally Posted By: KenK
I still read forum threads comparing SPOT with PLBs, and folks comment something along the line that the PLB's support system may not be reliable because it is government run/supported, while in general it seems that SPOT users tend to rely on family-based rescue - having a family member react to a call for help and arrange rescue.

I was wondering if anyone knows whether the government - or anyone else - keeps statistics on how often people have turned on a PLB but for whatever reason there was no response. Either the signal was not received, or there was an error in the response communication process.

Doesn't seem as if people understand the deatails of how these devices work and how they are supported.

As much as I complain about government, there are some things it manages to get right. When you trigger a PLB and the signal is received, it will not, daresay cannot, be ignored.

A SPOT has two ways to call for help. The "help" button notifies your designated contact, who you have hopefully told what to do. The "SOS" button notifies SPOT who informs the authorities. A third mechanism is possible with SPOT, if your contact fails to revceive an expected "OK" message he could notify authorities. You wouldn't use "help" to mean "HELP!!!!", that' s like calling your mother to ask her to call the fire department because your house is burning. The help message is more of a user-defined message that you would pre-arrange to mean something like "OK, but will be late" or "Pick me up at the trailhead"

I would guess that ranked in order being taken seriously, a PLB activation would be first, closely followed by an official "SOS" SPOT message. A notification by a family member of failure to receive an OK might be treated more like an overdue report.

Either way, once Uncle Sam has your GPS position, its hard to see how you can me "missed".
_________________________
- Tom S.

"Never trust and engineer who doesn't carry a pocketknife."

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#238097 - 12/28/11 02:45 PM Re: PLB Rescue Statistics? [Re: thseng]
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2209
Loc: NE Wisconsin
BTW, was just looking at the SPOT CONNECT device.

Glad to see that they included a stand-alone SOS button on the device, so if the smart phone is nonfunctional (Typically my Droid 2 would not even last 24 hours if left on continuously in a remote area where the cell signal is very weak).

Smart move!! I suspect a lot of folks will buy the SPOT CONNECT device instead of the regular SPOT in hopes of sending specific messages out.

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#238098 - 12/28/11 03:03 PM Re: PLB Rescue Statistics? [Re: ponder]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3825
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: ponder
Do not try to communicate with any type of chopper with anything except degrees and decimal degrees.


Thank you, I didn't know that.

Quote:
Now back to the original question – SPOT or the like or a PLB? You get to choose where to place your trust.


Understanding that I have no background in SAR and have never owned a PLB or SEND, I still have an opinion :-).

For best reliability, I would carry a PLB. I think that the communications systems it uses and the back-end processes are time-tested and resilient. It also seems that the devices are more rugged and likely to work when you need them. A PLB is by far the least expensive option over a five year span.

For best flexibility, I would carry a Delorme InReach. It's got great coverage and with two-way messaging could be very helpful in launching a rescue that's appropriate to the emergency, or launching no rescue at all if a group is overdue but not otherwise in distress.

The SPOT and SPOT Connect seems most useful to me if you are comfortable with one-way communication and more limited coverage than a PLB or an InReach. The SPOT Connect in particular is useful for launching an appropriate rescue or no rescue at all.

Here are the lowest prices I found. Costs go up significantly for the InReach and the SPOT Connect if you don't already have a compatible device.

ResQLink: $233. Five year cost: $233.

InReach (assuming you have a compatible device): $250 + $9.95/mo for the Safety plan. Five year cost: $847

SPOT Connect (assuming you have a compatible device): $150 + $100/yr. Five year cost: $650.

SPOT: $100 + $100/yr. Five year cost: $600.

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#238099 - 12/28/11 03:38 PM Re: PLB Rescue Statistics? [Re: chaosmagnet]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1418
Loc: Nothern Ontario
I just carry a regular PLB and always keep in mind what a local SAR tech mentioned to a group of us recently:

"Regardless of what PLB / SPOT device you use. If you push the button, SAR is alerted. We now have your coordinates and if you stay put, we will find and come to your rescue even if there is no other info forthcoming after the initial alert."

_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#238108 - 12/28/11 04:43 PM Re: PLB Rescue Statistics? [Re: Teslinhiker]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
The reason I carry a PLB when I fly is that unlike the aircraft manufacturer, I don't expect the aircraft and the attached ELT to remain above water long if a ditching emergency occurs. Being an optimist, when things go wrong I expect them to go very wrong. So I equip myself with all the back-up luck that I can. Redundancy is life.

While on active duty my squadron lost a few aircraft. Of the 22 souls in those aircraft one (1) survived. None of the other bodies were recovered. The one person rescued was located (in the middle of nowhere) by activation of his PRC-90 (243.0 MHz) beacon. That was the first and only signal that came from the aircraft. COSPAS-SARSAT was the evolutionary upgrade from that (now ancient) SAR system. Bottom line -- I carry an ACR PLB in my vest. The system has been tested and proven.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#238115 - 12/28/11 08:24 PM Re: PLB Rescue Statistics? [Re: KenK]
ponder Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 367
Loc: American Redoubt
IMHO - My preference -

1. ACR PLB
2. On the registration I list my personal URL.
3. I update the URL prior to each trip.
4. I carry a rescue strobe for the rescue phase.
5. I carry an MT1000 for the rescue phase.

........................................................

URL - RESCUE OF CLIFF and/or CAREY HARRISON

If you have gone to this page because of a Personal Rescue Beacon signal, we must be in trouble. We are the only two that have access to the ACR Beacon sending you the signal. Only an answering machine is at our home/business number - 208-793-3121.

TRIP DATE
12/19/2011 – KIRKHAM TRAIL, BOISE COUNTY, IDAHO

CLIFF HARRISON
66, 6' 1", 185#, HEALTHY, IN SHAPE, NO MEDICATIONS

CAREY HARRISON
65, 5' 7", 135#, HEALTHY, IN SHAPE, NO MEDICATIONS

TRUCK
RED FORD 1 TON, FLAT BED - IDAHO PLATE - "GUNS"


TRIP LOCATION
We are hiking the Kirkham Trail from Hwy 17. This is ¾ mile east of Kirkham Hot Springs. We plan on parking at N44.07207 W115.53116. We will hike North towards Kirkham Ridge - Boise County, ID - Sheriff - 208-392-4411.


TRUCK LOCATION
THE TRUCK IS PARKED ON HIGHWAY 17. It is ¾ MILES EAST OF THE KIRKHAM HOT SPRING AT - N44.07207 W115.53116


BACKUP PLAN
Adjacent canyon to west if Kirkham is blocked

TRAIL CONDITION
Trail clear and dry this morning. High winds and snow are pending. No snow until 5000'.

SCHEDULE
Be back to the truck and out by dark on 12/21/2011 or we are in trouble.

EQUIPMENT
We have serious overnight survival with us.
We have a white rescue strobe.
We carry firearms and bear spray.
We are aware of drug activity in canyon.


COMMUNICATE
We carry a cell phone – 208-781-0514. We carry a Motorola MT1000 and can communicate on 155.160 Mhz with Idaho Search & Rescue and 155.280 Mhz with Idaho State Communication.

MEDICAL
We have Life Flight Air Ambulance membership with St Al's Hospital out of Boise, Idaho.
_________________________
Cliff Harrison
PonderosaSports.com
Horseshoe Bend, ID
American Redoubt
N43.9668 W116.1888

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#238116 - 12/28/11 08:50 PM Re: PLB Rescue Statistics? [Re: ponder]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3601
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Nice trip plan, Cliff! Very specific in terms of where to look and what to look for. (I.e. the colour of strobe.)

Do you include a subsequent equipment list? I'm always torn about that. Generalizing leaves questions but a specific list doesn't always translate into the knowledge or ability to use it in a pinch. The colour of tent or tarp might be helpful.
_________________________
Mom & Adventurer

You can find me on YouTube here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT9fpZEy5XSWkYy7sgz-mSA

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#238118 - 12/28/11 09:10 PM Re: PLB Rescue Statistics? [Re: ponder]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3825
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: ponder
We carry a Motorola MT1000 and can communicate on 155.160 Mhz with Idaho Search & Rescue and 155.280 Mhz with Idaho State Communication.


Very nice plan! I really like the idea of putting a URL into your PLB registration and keeping it updated. Everyone with a PLB should do this.

Forgive my radio geekery: How did you come to have an MT1000? Are you licensed to use those frequencies (NB in an emergency it's legal to transmit on frequencies that you don't have a license for, if that's the best way to communicate)?

I'd be putting my amateur radio callsign and gear on the list. Presumably the local RACES would be willing and able to provide a ham with his/her radio to try to communicate with me on whatever frequency I'd be monitoring.

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