There's a lot of talk about alcohol stoves and how great they are in terms of being light weight. Alcohol stoves though are super vulnerable to wind. I'm interested in integrated alcohol stove systems where the windscreen and stove are designed to work together. Micky mousing something together hasn't worked well for me.

I thought I'd take a couple of alcohol stoves systems, run them side by side, and see what I might see.

So, this past Saturday, I took a Clikstand and a Caldera Cone over to a friend's for a little stove testing.


If you're interested in my findings you can read about them on my blog Adventures In Stoving -- Caldera Cone vs. Clikstand Alcohol Stove Tests.

HJ

excellent

Thanks. Stay tuned. I'm going to head up to the mountains this weekend with the family. I'm hoping to have some time to do some more testing with the Clikstand. It's a nice set up although it's not quite as light or as efficient as the Caldera Cone -- but then all the Cone does is boil water and can do so only with the pot it's paired with.

The Clikstand can cook and can use pots, pans, or kettles. The Clikstand is also stainless steel, and the Trangia burner is brass. Both materials are a lot stronger than the softdrink can and aluminum sheet that the Cone is made out of. In terms of longevity, I'd bet on the Clikstand.

Sure is nice carrying the Caldera Cone though. My pack weight was down to about 25lbs including water, food, and fuel on my last trip:


HJ

Jim... I'm not a hiker/backpacker so my "mickeyed" attempt may not meet your requirements, but was pretty inexpensive.... $12 for the Trangia burner and $20 for the pair of surplus stoves

I purchased a pair of new surplus Swiss Ranger volcano kits (cup, aluminum bottle, and stove that nest together

opened up the fuel feed hole to accept a Trangia stove with a pair of metal cutting shears...worked well with the tapered cup due to the increase of surface area of the exposed sides of the cup... didn't try the bottle

I wanted to pack Sterno or other jelled alcohol for my car kit... opened the access hole further, to accept a sterno can.... pretty close to full diameter...may be too much for your wind trials, but worked in light wind, and also with paraffin heat source (lot of soot)

have you done a test with the Swiss Ranger Volcano set?

An excellent review once again!

Can you fit the disassembled click stand into the Primus Litech 0.9L kettle along with the Trangia Burner, lighter and a small bottle (Nalgene) of Methylated spirit etc? I am looking to up grade to the clickstand or even the Trangia Triangle.




Trangia burner with Tatonka Stand, MSR Kettle and Titanium Foil Windscreen

Hi, Les,

I've seen the Swiss Ranger Volcano set. I haven't worked with one, but I know a lot of people like them. They certainly look sturdy.

They've always struck me as a bit heavy looking. Do you know what your set weighs?

Both the Clikstand and the Caldera Cone break down pretty nicely. I have a photo on my blog of the Caldera Cone all stowed. I'll have to post a photo of the Clikstand when disassembled.

HJ

Hmmm.... A really nice picture of your stove in the snow - but the picture also freaks me out. Have you boiled with this setup? The stove stand and wind screen just pegged down in the snow like that?

I would think that once lit the stove would bury itself in the snow. The heat and the weight of a full kettle would soften the snow - or at least, that's what I think would happen.


Snow is a terrible material for stove support. Excessive melting UNDER the stove is just a massive vaste of heat and fuel, which also makes the snow more soft and soggy. Which is why many home made winter stove setup are mounted on a small piece of plywood or similar. I've also used my snow showel. The showel conducts heat and is slippery, making a lousy stove foundation. Use with proper care and supervision.

Am_Fear_Liath_Mor,

Unfortunately, not everything will fit into the Primus Litech kettle. I love my little kettle, and it's a great shape (wide and flat) for boiling water, but the opening is too small to get some of the pieces in. Your MSR kettle (Alpine kettle, yes?) should work well.

I haven't used the Trangia Triangle. It looks similar to the Clikstand, but the Triangle doesn't have the notches onto which one can mount a windscreen. The Clikstand has a very good reputation for functioning well in wind. Of course you could use a self-standing windscreen, like the one in the photo with your Tatonka stand, but the Clikstand is tuned such that the air flow is controlled and aids in combustion. A self standing windscreen might not have the same effect.

HJ

I usually use a square of closed cell foam (CCF) cut from a backpacking type sleeping pad. I wrap the CCF in duct tape so fuel will roll off rather than soak in. CCF can act as a wick if fuel gets into it. Don't ask me how I know that.

HJ

Jim...sorry, I don't have access to a triple beam balance any more, so don't have anything to measure the stove on.. the aluminum in the stove is very soft, but corrugation add strength...I'm sure there are more efficient designs in the backpacking field, probably why the Ranger stoves are surplus...

No problem; just curious.

I may eventually get a Ranger stove, particularly since I have a Borde stove which will fit into the Ranger stove. We'll see.

For now, I'm testing the Trangia 27, the Caldera Cone, and the Clikstand.

HJ

The snow in the photo was only a couple in inches deep on a flat stone. Even then this setup boiled about 1 litre of water in around 23 minutes at a temperature around -6 C. The Trangia burner did take about 2-3 minutes to jet properly though.

It was a test to check sub zero alcohol stove performance. To improve cold weather temperature performance using this Trangia setup I would now place a Snowpeak Ti plate and Trangia primer pan from a Trangia winter attachment underneath the assembly. A little bit of insulation under the ti plate would help with efficiency as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuvCxjFgKWw

Personally I still haven't yet come across an alcohol burner that outperforms the Trangia burner in terms of overall performance, usability and flexibility and cost. The ability for the Trangia to store residue fuel internally is a major plus.

There's a lot to be said for the Trangia burner. As one writer put it: "there are two types of alcohol stoves. The Trangia -- and everything else."

The "open jet" style of the Trangia burner is definitely my favorite, and I've experimented with quite a few styles. Easy to fill, easy to light, and effective.

HJ

Great review Jim. In order to use smaller pots on the Clickstand, I bent a stainless steel bicycle spoke into a triangle (bent around the outside of the pot supports). Works nicely.

Ah. Good idea.

I tried a 1000ml pot with the Clikstand last night. The nice thing about the 1000ml pot is that a) it fits on the Clikstand quite securely (a 780ml pot was unstable), and b) everything fits inside well (disassembled Clikstand, Trangia burner, fuel bottle, lighter, and fuel measuring cup).

HJ

Some stats for those who may be interested:

Clikstand with Trangia Burner
Clikstand S-2: 94g/3.3oz
Windscreen S-2: 37g/1.3oz (note: In my testing I used a BPL Ti windscreen, 25g/0.9oz)
Trangia Burner: 67g/2.4oz
Trangia Burner Lid: 21g/0.7 oz
Trangia Burner Simmer Ring: 23g/0.8oz
Total Trangia Burner Weight: 112g/4.0oz
Grand Total: The Clikstand with Trangia burner set up is 242g/8.5 oz total, including windscreen, burner lid, and simmer ring.

Note: The above weights are taken from the Clikstand.com website. SNOWGOOSE in Scotland wrote and gave me the actual weights for his Clikstand set up. His weights are a gram or two heavier in several cases. His total weight was 247g/8.7oz.

The Caldera Cone with 10-12 stove
Caldera Cone: 34g/1.2oz
10-12 stove: 16g/0.6oz
Grand Total: The Caldera Cone with 10-12 stove is 50g/1.75 oz

Note: The above weights are actual weights. The weight of a particular cone may vary depending on what type of pot it is designed for, the type of cone, and the material from which the cone is made (Ti or Al).

The Clikstand with Trangia burner is approximately five times heavier than the Caldera Cone with 10-12 stove.

HJ

Thanks for the information on the weights.

The Tatonka burner stand weighs in at 89g and the Titanium Foil windshield weighs 43g so the total including the Trangia burner etc is 244 grams. So virtually the same weight as the click stand. When the fuel weight performance of alcohol is compared to a liquid (naptha) or gas fuel (butane/propane) then even the recently reviewed MSR Whisperlite Universal is looking very competitive (even without all the advantages such as simmering control, speed and the ability to use inside a tent)



That is very lightweight, but the limitations on its use i.e. only really useful for boiling water with a single specific pot, together with the durability i.e. it would easily be crushed in an accident, make the stove less attractive than a 50 gram titanium gas burner. (the gas burner is even cheaper to purchase)

http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/blaze-titanium-stove-p158215

Yes, but you have no windscreen on a small gas stove like that. In a stiff breeze (or more), I'd take the Caldera Cone set up every time. The pot in a Caldera Cone is a whole lot more stable than a pot on top of a small gas stove.

As for crushing, it could happen, but when I pack up my Caldera Cone and slip it in the Ziploc container, and then nest the container inside my titanium pot, things are pretty well protected. Foolproof? No. Reasonably secure? Yes, I think so.

I don't find the Caldera Cone all that limiting with it's pot-specific design. The trick is to pick a pot (and matching cone) that works for what you do. I've got an MSR Titan 0.85L kettle. It can be used as a mug, pot, or kettle. It has a full-width opening, so there's no difficulty with cleaning or getting things out of the pot/kettle as there is in some designs. True, you can't do real cooking, but the Titan kettle is still fairly versatile. When I'm out on the trail, I keep my food prep fairly simple for the most part anyway, so the Titan kettle works for me. I wouldn't try to fry a trout in it though.

HJ

A windscreen can be added and is still competitive for system weight.



Here is a comparable setup using a propane/butane gas burner setup

Hi Gear Blaze Titanium Gas Stove 49g
Primus Clip-On stove windscreen 60g
Primus Stove Foot Rest 22g
Alpkit MytiPot 1350ml pot + lid (doubles as frypan) + handle 172g
100 g Gas Cartridge 165g

Total - 468 g

At first glance this setup would appear to be heavier by around 55 grams but the pot is much larger at 1350ml (could even possibly cater for 1-2 people) and it has a separate fry pan.
To boil the same amount of water you would need around 195g of alcohol compared to 100g of propane/butane (Methylated spirit @0.026MJ/g compared with propane/butane@0.050MJ/g), but this difference is roughly equivalent to the weight of pot cozy and ziploc container. Initial purchase Cost is comparable in the UK @ around £85. Running cost is a different matter though, but in reality this is down to the type of cooking and type of food that it brought along. Boiling water only capability for a freeze dried mountain house is expensive.

Alcohol stoves aren't really considerably lighter except for the occasional single overnight stay where the liquid alcohol fuel weight can be dialed in specifically for that 1-2 day trip. Even then the weight difference of less than 100g still doesn't really outweigh the other major advantages of using a gas burner.



The MSR Titan Kettle is a great bit of kit (it is very expensive though in the UK). The Primus Tea Kettle is excellent as well but is about 1/3 the cost. For those on a budget the Tatonka Stand/Primus Tea Kettle/Trangia Burner is excellent value for money at around £32.

For a great bargain, consider the Mini-Trangia cookset, 35 bucks complete at REI. Add in some heavy duty foil to supplement the windscreen and you are good to go.

I suspect a lot of us have both cartridge stoves and some variety of alcohol as well, vacillating between them depending upon the trip, along with a white gas/kerosene rig for really cold excursions. The rule of thumb seems to be that for trips of a week or so, a well managed cartridge stove is as light as any alcohol rig.

In the USA, the Achilles heel of the cartridge stoves is the reasonably frequent inability to obtain fuel after flying to your destination. This is probably not a consideration in merrie old England.

For utter simplicity and rock solid dependability, it is hard to beat a Trangia when you absolutely, positively need to brew up a nice cup of tea with no fuss or bother.

The Primus clip-on windscreen is mostly open and isn't much of a windscreen.

There isn't a vast weight difference between a small gas burner and an alcohol stove, but there is a vast difference between the wind protection of something like a Caldera Cone (very good) and a Primus clip-on (particularly poor). There are other windscreen options for small gas burners that will give you better coverage. I've got some listed on my blog: Windscreens

I've seen a lot of different sets of numbers from guys doing actual cooking on the trail. In general, the break even point seems to be about 5 to 7 person days. If you're out for less than that, an alcohol stove is lighter. If you're out for more than that, a gas stove is lighter.

But they're pretty close. Some of it comes down to personal preference, and just how much emphasis you put on weight. There are "gram weenies" out there for whom a 10g difference is a big deal, and they're willing to do the work to shed those 10g.

Alcohol stoves generally fit my approach to cooking while backpacking (KISS), and I like that the Caldera Cone is efficient and consistent.

Small gas stoves excel in speed, flame control, and convenience, but they generally suck in wind. The Caldera Cone excels in wind. I was camped a couple of weeks ago at 10,500'/3200m. It was windy. I was really glad I had brought the Caldera Cone and not a little gas stove.

HJ

Ha! I should have read your post before I responded to Am_Fear_Liath_Mor. Yes, that's my understanding too. About a week is the dividing line. For long distance "through hikers," they often plan on a resupply once a week, and they do the entire AT, CDT, or PCT with an alcohol stove.

Yep. Guilty as charged. I use white gas sometimes too just cause it's cheap. I go out on night hikes a lot where we do a pot luck. If I'm heating water for twenty five people, I might be heating over a gallon (4 liters) of water. It's nice just to use white gas and not worry about the cost.

A Trangia is nice burner. They're pretty efficient but do OK on the speed aspect too. I think they're a nice balance. A little heavy compared to aluminum can stoves, but solid, and you can actually cook on them if you use the simmer ring.

The Trangia set up is known for using more alcohol in windy conditions. While it's known for working well in wind, it uses fuel fairly quickly under such conditions. The Caldera Cone is known for being consistently efficient even in wind. Of course, if you're not counting grams and have plenty of fuel, you may want that faster boil time.

There are lot of good stove options out there. The stove you choose will depend a lot of your circumstances, your style, and your preferences.

HJ

What seems to be the verdict for when it would be optimum to choose white gas/kerosene stove system? Then it's not only the weight that counts, but also the bulk of all those canisters.

For me, it is merely intellectual curiosity - I choose stove system based on the performance I want. I hardly use alcohol for anything else than priming, but it is my canister system that sees the most use.

The liquid systems come to the fore when the mercury plummets or you are doing extensive cooking, melting snow, feeding a large group, or the like. As I age, the likelihood of me venturing out in severe conditions becomes more and more theoretical, so I use my cartridge and alcohol rigs more and more on the balmy days when I venture forth.

My liquid fuel stove is more and more of a museum piece, kept around for the potential disaster, along with the Coleman two burner car camping stove, adaptable to run on propane. That way I can burn whatever is handy.

In practice, the bulk of the canisters is not that big an issue, since one large canister will typically last a week or so in normal usage.

hikermor summed it up pretty well, but here's my take:

The only time you need a petroleum based liquid fueled stove is when it's really cold. There are gas stoves that will work below 0F/-18C (particularly if you do things to warm the canister), but in general 0F/-18C is sort of my dividing line between appropriate use of a winter capable gas stove vs. a liquid fueled stove.

Other reasons to use a liquid fueled stove:

• Motor touring. Liquid fuel is pretty popular with long distance motorcyclists for example. They can just pull a little unleaded out of their tanks and run their stove.
• International travel. Kerosene is the international stove fuel and is pretty available world wide. Av gas and unleaded automotive gas are also available in many areas where threaded backpacking canisters are not.
• "Sustainability." Canisters take a lot to manufacture and are single use. Even if you recycle them, there's still a much greater impact than buying liquid fuel bottle that will last a lifetime (or more)
• KISS (keep it simple, sweetheart). If don't want to have "gear proliferation" and want one stove for all four seasons, liquid fuel is the way to go.
• High volume use. Liquid fuel is still the cheapest fuel. For people that use their stoves a lot, it's a good option. A four ounce canister of gas costs about $5.00. The equivalent amount of white gasoline? About $0.30.
• Nostalgia. Seriously! I've still got my uncle's 1962 Primus 71 stove. It's all brass, and it's highly cool. I'm not going to stop using that or my ultra-cool Svea 123 just because gas is a bit more convenient! Get real!

HJ

I recently bought a jetboil SOL, and tried it out for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I already love it for its speed and convenience for summer camping. Coffee in the morning is definately a survival item for me.

However, given the part of the country where I live, where it has been known to get "really cold" (now and then), I think I will also keep my white gas whisperlite in good working order!

The other nice thing about the Jetboil is that it's a lot more wind resistant than most upright canister stoves. I really do like my Jetboil, and truth be known, I've used it more on my backpacks over the last 5 years than any of my other stoves. BUT, like you say, for cold weather use, I'm not bringing a JB. I used a Dragonfly on my last snow camp.

HJ

Another excellent article.

Blake

www.outdoorquest.biz

Thanks, Blake.

I hope to have more Clikstand info posted soon.

HJ

As promised, more information on the Clikstand.

HJ