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#232701 - 09/25/11 03:13 AM Pepper Spray question
GarlyDog Offline
τΏτ
Old Hand

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 776
Loc: The People's Republic of IL
For those of you who use, or have researched pepper spray, which delivery method do you prefer: ballistic stream, dense fog, other?
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#232704 - 09/25/11 05:11 AM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: GarlyDog]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1415
Originally Posted By: GarlyDog
For those of you who use, or have researched pepper spray, which delivery method do you prefer: ballistic stream, dense fog, other?


Disclaimer: All my information about pepper spray is second-hand, mostly from the web. In other words, I'm no subject area expert. Below are just some thoughts.

I looked into pepper spray sometime ago as a possible aid in an active shooter situation. At the end, I decided that it was totally inadequate for that. I made a post with a preliminary list of the varieties I looked into, including projectile balls and projectile gel (guess this falls under your "other" category):

http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=15442&Number=210039#Post210039

As for your question, I am inclined towards the projectile balls or gel. Range is better. Cross-breeze doesn't affect it as much. Leave less peppery residue in the air. There is also the additional impact on the target's face. The main problem is that you usually need a gas-powered device to shoot the pepper ball/gel. So size is a problem. The other problem is that aiming may be more difficult, especially at the outer reach of its range. Stream can be affected too much by the wind. The range is more limited. On the other hand, this is what the police carries, and maybe there is a good reason (other than a canister fits on their belt more easily than a gas pistol). Fog seems more suitable for police work, controlling crowds and such. Not sure how it can be used for self-defense.

Since then, I have handled the Kimber PepperBlaster II (http://www.pepperblaster.com/). It seems like a nifty idea, even though it has only two shots. You can read the website for specifics on range, composition, etc. But let me tell you, even though it's shaped sort of like a gun, with front and rear sights, hitting anything under stress would be a bit of a challenge. There isn't that much for the hand to grab on to (your ring finger and pinky may hang off), and the distance between the sights just isn't much.

The worst thing for me is that for almost any brand/variety of pepper spray, you will be able to find a Youtube video in which the test subject takes a while to be affected. Afterwards they all complain about how terrible it was, but they all could have shot/stabbed/hit you over the head with a bat if it were a real defensive situation. For other test subjects, the spray can work quite fast. So this inconsistency worries me. If you want to carry a pepper spray, you'd better get ready to fight hand-to-hand, possibly against an armed assailant before the effect of the spray kicks in.

The stronger brands (Fox Labs, Sabre, Vexor, etc.) may have the additional problem that they're so strong that approaching or being near the "receiver" of the spray may become difficult. A guy reports that after he used a pepper spray on an assailant, the police came. They refused to take the bad guy to the station. Why? They didn't want to be in the same car with him. They made the good citizen who just defended himself drive the perp to the station. He says that he was crying the whole way from the residue spray emanating from the perp's face. Of course, this is almost a luxury problem as far as I am concerned, if the spray succeeds in saving me.

Da Bing

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#232706 - 09/25/11 05:48 AM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: Bingley]
Alex Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 1034
Loc: -
Disclaimer: IMHO. Never applied to a real situation.
Originally Posted By: Bingley
Fog seems more suitable for police work, controlling crowds and such. Not sure how it can be used for self-defense.


#1. That's the hint. Use the fog. It needs more training and practice but absolutely much more effective than anything else using the OC. Also make sure you got a real thing, the bear spray is a finest example of a substance out of doubt (It stops such a complete animal).

Quote:

Afterwards they all complain about how terrible it was...


You can use the antidote if that happens (available in stores, expensive, perishable). Regarding the effectiveness, see the note #1 above.

Quote:

They made the good citizen who just defended himself drive the perp to the station.

Sounds like an urban legend, or he (she) might sue them for that (see disclaimer). IANAL, but most likely the victim and the perp were close enough to share a ride. By the way, the fog spray evaporates faster than the foam or splashes from balls.

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#232711 - 09/25/11 12:16 PM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: GarlyDog]
ponder Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 367
Loc: American Redoubt
Originally Posted By: GarlyDog
For those of you who use, or have researched pepper spray, which delivery method do you prefer: ballistic stream, dense fog, other?


What is the threat that you are researching?

Bears, Pit Bulls, burglary, unarmed human attack, riots, flash mobs, gun fights?

The answers are quite different.
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PonderosaSports.com
Horseshoe Bend, ID
American Redoubt
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#232715 - 09/25/11 02:28 PM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: GarlyDog]
7point82 Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 478
Loc: Oklahoma
I won't claim to be an expert of any kind. Do your research specific to the context in which you intend to use it.

The last time I made any pepper spray purchases the consensus of people I polled preferred stream. The people whose opinions I solicited were primarily law enforcement and/or combatives practitioners.

IIRC the primary strike against foam or gel was usually that in a close hand to hand confrontation it was too common for the person on the receiving end of the spray to simply wipe it off and then apply it to the person that had deployed the spray.
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"There is not a man of us who does not at times need a helping hand to be stretched out to him, and then shame upon him who will not stretch out the helping hand to his brother." -Theodore Roosevelt

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#232717 - 09/25/11 02:54 PM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: 7point82]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
Originally Posted By: 7point82

The last time I made any pepper spray purchases the consensus of people I polled preferred stream. The people whose opinions I solicited were primarily law enforcement and/or combatives practitioners.


Yea, stream is what's generally preferred for personal use, as it has the lowest chance of getting back onto the user. It what you'll usually see on an officer's duty belt.

For riot control a fogger is preferred for the opposite reason....it gets everywhere, so you can spray a lot of people in one instance. The downside though, is that it will get the user too. With a fogger it's best to have some sort of protection (either a full face shield or, better yet, a gas mask)


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#232720 - 09/25/11 04:02 PM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: GarlyDog]
CANOEDOGS Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1843
Loc: MINNESOTA
Fog..i carry the big can on solo canoe trips more as a security blanket than anything else,with no one to look over your shoulder in camp or on the portage it's just feels better to have something to even the odds--a bit--
if i had to use one on a bear i would fog the ground in front of the big guy covering my nose and mouth with my arm.also close one eye just before you shoot so if you get any blow back you will still have one good eye.

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#232721 - 09/25/11 04:16 PM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: CANOEDOGS]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
Originally Posted By: CANOEDOGS
also close one eye just before you shoot so if you get any blow back you will still have one good eye.


When I did training with OC spray, that's what they recommended to us. If you can, close one eye while you're spraying. I was told it might help a little, but it's no guarantee, because the stuff also effects skin and mucus membranes.

When I had to get sprayed, they made us put a hand over one eye (so we would only get sprayed on one side of the face). Even then it sucked.

However, we also had one or two people that seemed to be almost completely unaffected by it. Apparently a small portion of the population has only a minimal reaction to it. Personally, It felt like my head was in an oven while someone was pouring sand into my eyes. cry

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#232726 - 09/25/11 06:27 PM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: Bingley]
comms Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
Originally Posted By: Bingley
They made the good citizen who just defended himself drive the perp to the station. He says that he was crying the whole way from the residue spray emanating from the perp's face. Of course, this is almost a luxury problem as far as I am concerned, if the spray succeeds in saving me.

Da Bing


Lets just say for the sake of arguing, I defend myself from an attacker with pepper spray successfully. And then the police refuse to take this criminal to the police station under arrest unless I take him there, or to a hospital for treatment where he will be observed by LEO.

I am willing to bet that between the scene of where I defended myself and where the police have forced me to take someone to affect a citizen arrest....I'm bound to drive fast over a few potholes. I might find that his head hit my windshield hard enough, several times to break the glass, its a horrible thought but I can get my windshield replaced for free through my insurance. It is possible that the spray affect this attacker so strongly that he stopped breathing. It's possible, the officers were gagging just being near him. So I had to do CPR on him and in the process a few ribs were cracked. That's pretty common in CPR. I mean I wouldn't want the guy to die on me while I was affecting a citizens arrest on the way to the police station, right?

Of course, I would personally never think to do anything like that. That would be unheard of. How uncivilized.
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#232727 - 09/25/11 07:10 PM Re: Pepper Spray question [Re: Paul810]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
When I did training with OC spray, that's what they recommended to us. If you can, close one eye while you're spraying. I was told it might help a little, but it's no guarantee, because the stuff also effects skin and mucus membranes.

When I had to get sprayed, they made us put a hand over one eye (so we would only get sprayed on one side of the face). Even then it sucked.


Sounds like Quality Polis Training... wink

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