Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#229528 - 08/09/11 08:41 PM Londoners take to streets to clean up
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California

Top
#229533 - 08/09/11 09:36 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: dweste]
sheldon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 40
Looking at the riots themselves (not the clean-up) from the point of view of self-defense/survival, what's the recommended behavior? Suppose you live in an affected area and the crowd decides to burn your car/shop/house. Is it a good idea to use firearms for self-defense, or is it better to flee? Keep in mind that many insurance policies have exclusions for riots, so if they burn down your house, it may be difficult to recover.

Top
#229554 - 08/09/11 11:17 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: sheldon]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 6583
Loc: southern Cal
My understanding is that in most criminal codes in the USA, if not all, defense of property does not justify lethal force. You want to be sure you are in fear of your life (or those of your loved ones).
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#229556 - 08/09/11 11:30 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: dweste]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077
The riots in the past few days in London town are actually quite nostalgic, takes me back a few years to the days of Thatcherism before the City of London big bang, de-industrialisation and the rise of the Yuppie (remember them).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCw9_avTlYs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2TYKmQc0L4

not forgetting of course;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqcizZebcaU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSKc5sNNuOc





Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (08/10/11 12:03 AM)

Top
#229561 - 08/10/11 12:00 AM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: hikermor]
sheldon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 40
Originally Posted By: hikermor
My understanding is that in most criminal codes in the USA, if not all, defense of property does not justify lethal force. You want to be sure you are in fear of your life (or those of your loved ones).

I'm wondering how that would work in a situation like this. There is a crowd outside my door and they want to burn down my house. Clearly I have reasons to fear for my life if I stay inside the house. I'm also not sure I'd be that comfortable to leave the house, given that there is a hostile uncontrolled crowd outside. I don't have their written guarantee not to harm me, nor would I trust one even if I had it. Is this reason enough to use lethal force, are there precedents?

I'm also interested in just the tactical viewpoint. Suppose legal issues are not a concern. Is it wise to fire at a crowd, are they likely to disperse or are they likely to become more violent?

Top
#229566 - 08/10/11 12:48 AM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: hikermor]
Byrd_Huntr Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 1160
Loc: MN, Land O' Lakes & Rivers ...
Originally Posted By: hikermor
My understanding is that in most criminal codes in the USA, if not all, defense of property does not justify lethal force. You want to be sure you are in fear of your life (or those of your loved ones).


It's a matter of degree. Most states have adopted the Castle Doctrine from English common law. A person may use deadly force to defend their home, car, tent etc. from an intruder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine
_________________________
The man got the powr but the byrd got the wyng

Top
#229572 - 08/10/11 01:13 AM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: sheldon]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077

Quote:
Is it wise to fire at a crowd, are they likely to disperse or are they likely to become more violent?


Why does it have to come down to everyone wanting to shoot each other in a riot? The London riots have shown that a full scale riots can take place without it turning into a mass casualty event. Personal possessions and property can be replaced (that's why there are insurance companies), but people full of bullet holes are somewhat more difficult to replace and the cost to the UK National Health Service patching up the wounded would also be quite high.

I really can't imagine what is going to happen when the same austerity measures take hold in the US and inevitable rioting breaks out across all the cities throughout the USA. frown

Top
#229575 - 08/10/11 01:31 AM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
sheldon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 40
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
Why does it have to come down to everyone wanting to shoot each other in a riot?

I definitely don't want to shoot anyone in a riot. But I might be forced to if I feared for my safety and shooting the rioters were an effective measure. So that's what I'm trying to find out -- is it an effective measure, or is it likely to do more harm than good.

Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
The London riots have shown that a full scale riots can take place without it turning into a mass casualty event.

It's certainly nice that so far there have been relatively few casualties; however, if my and my family's safety were at stake, I would prefer to have somewhat more solid guarantees. Somehow relying on the goodwill of people who are burning houses seems a little less that totally satisfactory to me.

Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
Personal possessions and property can be replaced (that's why there are insurance companies)

That's not exactly true; many insurance companies have provisions that deny coverage in case of widespread disturbances (such as riots, war, etc.).

Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
I really can't imagine what is going to happen when the same austerity measures take hold in the US and inevitable rioting breaks out across all the cities throughout the USA.

Actually, there have been riots in the US in the past, and I was hoping someone would be able to mention which strategies worked and how legal issues were settled.

Top
#229576 - 08/10/11 01:34 AM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: sheldon]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 2946
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: sheldon
I'm wondering how that would work in a situation like this. There is a crowd outside my door and they want to burn down my house. Clearly I have reasons to fear for my life if I stay inside the house. I'm also not sure I'd be that comfortable to leave the house, given that there is a hostile uncontrolled crowd outside. I don't have their written guarantee not to harm me, nor would I trust one even if I had it. Is this reason enough to use lethal force, are there precedents?


In most US states the large disparity of force between an angry mob and a single man with a rifle would be easily understood by a court. In some US states you can use deadly force to defend against arson, and as far as I know all US states permit the use of deadly force to defend against arson of an occupied structure. Note that I am not a lawyer, and this isn't legal advice.

Quote:
I'm also interested in just the tactical viewpoint. Suppose legal issues are not a concern. Is it wise to fire at a crowd, are they likely to disperse or are they likely to become more violent?


I'd be trying to evaluate the mob and evaluate my chances of survival either way. The weather could have a big impact if the mob is taking away my only shelter. I might feel as though I had no choice (one way or the other), if my children were with me.

Where I live, if the police aren't taking care of business the best hope I'd have is to know that the trouble was coming and work with my neighbors to defend our neighborhood.


Edited by chaosmagnet (08/10/11 01:39 AM)
Edit Reason: typos

Top
#229577 - 08/10/11 01:39 AM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 2946
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
I really can't imagine what is going to happen when the same austerity measures take hold in the US and inevitable rioting breaks out across all the cities throughout the USA. frown


I don't think it's going to play out that way. I'm not promising "no riots in the US" for any period of time, but I seriously doubt that we'll have widespread riots.

If it does, though, you should expect property owners to use deadly force to defend their families and their livelihoods. In that (extremely unlikely, IMO) case, riots will be very short-lived in parts of the US where gun ownership isn't heavily restricted.

Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >



Moderator:  KG2V, NightHiker 
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
Who's Online
1 registered (haertig), 248 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
jackmiller, DaveL, Dale, rac, Boris
5266 Registered Users
Newest Posts
Defense, bear v handguns 97% success, & by caliber
by Jax
Today at 02:09 AM
Best use of time, money
by Russ
Yesterday at 10:44 PM
Funny Photos
by Jeanette_Isabelle
Yesterday at 05:28 PM
Time Capsule
by Jeanette_Isabelle
10/20/18 11:35 PM
Florida residents desperate for food and shelter
by hikermor
10/20/18 05:44 PM
Arizona Mine Rescue
by hikermor
10/20/18 03:59 PM
Folder for Opening Boxes
by hikermor
10/19/18 03:18 PM
get a cheap laptop
by TeacherRO
10/16/18 05:45 PM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.