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#229627 - 08/10/11 06:42 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: sheldon]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3133
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: sheldon
Say the accuracy isn't an issue at all, you are a good shot, you hold well under stress and you know you probably will hit exactly where you aim. Even in this case, I don't think you are obligated to aim for the head or even the torso. You may choose to aim for arms or legs if you wanted to give the attacker one more chance to stop.


Accuracy under stress is always an issue, unless, perhaps, you're a special forces operator.

But let's follow your hypothesis and say that a Genie granted my wish to always hit exactly what I'm trying to shoot at. In a deadly force confrontation, there is an attacker who is going to kill or seriously injure me or my loved ones if I don't stop him. You better believe that if (God forbid) I'm ever in that position, I'm going to try to stop the threat as quickly as possible.

I respectfully submit that anyone who isn't ready to do that should not own firearms for self defense.

We should get back onto topic. I will be pleased to continue this conversation in a new thread or via PM if you prefer.

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#229632 - 08/10/11 08:08 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: NightHiker]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5129
Loc: SOCAL
Technically they are shooting to stop the threat, they are not shooting to necessarily kill the threat. The threat may end up dead, but the goal is to stop, not kill.

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#229634 - 08/10/11 08:32 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: ireckon]
LED Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: ireckon
The UK is having these widespread riots because of the ingrained belief that using non-lethal force on violent criminals is always appropriate. Violent criminals are definitely endorsing that concept. So, it can't be good.


I would disagree. There are major socio-economic issues in the UK that have gone unresolved for many years. Add lots of young people with no jobs and you've got your riot. Things like this don't just happen out of the blue.

As for defending your home from rioters goes, pepper spray, bear spray, a restaurant sized jar of jalapenos in a garden sprayer cool , whatever works I suppose.

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#229635 - 08/10/11 08:48 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: NightHiker]
sheldon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 40
chaosmagnet and NightHiker, thanks, it was a useful discussion (for me at least).

Originally Posted By: NightHiker
Oh, and a belated "WELCOME to ETS Sheldon!"

Thank you! smile

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#229640 - 08/10/11 09:42 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: chaosmagnet]
celler Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/25/03
Posts: 410
Loc: Jupiter, FL
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
Originally Posted By: celler
I can't think of a single situation where someone who used non-lethal force that did not end the threat could be twisted into an argument that lethal force was not necessary.


I'm not an attorney, but an attorney versed in this area of law gave me this warning. Again, it depends, and you should consult a competent attorney for your jurisdiction.


Fortunately, not necessary. Four years working as a deputy sheriff to pay for law school eventually paid off.

Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
Originally Posted By: celler
]I can tell you have never used large bear spray unit. It deploys long and large. The biggest problem is not contaminating yourself.


I'm well aware of how large bear sprays work. You may have noticed that when the cops use irritant gas to disperse rioters, they tend to use lots more than even a large OC spray canister contains.


The CS canisters (predecessor to current pepper spray) I was issued were no bigger than the bear spray canisters I described earlier. You might say I noticed, I had a few in the trunk of my patrol car.

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#229642 - 08/10/11 10:21 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2077
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
The London riots have shown that a full scale riots can take place without it turning into a mass casualty event.

The London criminals certainly know how to riot properly, don't they?

Quote:
I really can't imagine what is going to happen when the same austerity measures take hold in the US and inevitable rioting breaks out across all the cities throughout the USA. frown

I imagine there will be a lot less burning homes and buildings, and a lot less innocent people trembling in fear waiting for the authorities to show up.

You act as if people coming to burn your house down is to be expected, and something to be tolerated. Wouldn't want to harm them while they're lighting their firebombs, now would we?

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#229646 - 08/10/11 11:37 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: dweste]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
A woman who is living in England (Birmingham, I think) was talking via phone to a news guy on KOMO radio (Seattle). She is someone known to the news guy, whatever recommendation that confers, if any.

She said that it isn't economics, it isn't race, it's for fun-- the rioters are 'going shopping' and destroying whatever they can. Some of the violence and theft are being perpetuated by kids as young as nine years old. They're setting fire to shops where they know people are living above. In my book, that's attempted murder.

With the elimination of most of the guns in England, the rioters know that if most people try to fight back it is likely going to have to be hand-to-hand combat. Which side is likely to have the most experience?

I was reading about bear spray, and the can only lasts about 7 seconds. I think you would need a good supply of bear spray, or only a small supply of rioters.

On the subject of intent to stop, not kill (mostly), how about loading shotgun shells with rock salt?

Sue

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#229647 - 08/10/11 11:47 PM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: Susan]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5129
Loc: SOCAL
Quote:
On the subject of intent to stop, not kill (mostly), how about loading shotgun shells with rock salt?
The intent is to to stop the bad guy RIGHT NOW, so he cannot continue to do whatever is causing you to fear for your life.

My shotgun ammo is 00 Buck -- that is what I will use in my meager attempt to stop a bad guy in my home. Back-up is a .45 pistol.

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#229650 - 08/11/11 02:05 AM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: chaosmagnet]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
Never, ever, point a gun at a person unless you are legally and morally justified in using deadly force.

Never, ever, think that pointing a gun with a less-lethal round in it at a person isn't deadly force.


Yes, there's no room to argue around those points.
_________________________
If you're reading this, it's too late.

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#229652 - 08/11/11 02:55 AM Re: Londoners take to streets to clean up [Re: ireckon]
Crowe Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 88
Originally Posted By: ireckon
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
Never, ever, point a gun at a person unless you are legally and morally justified in using deadly force.

Never, ever, think that pointing a gun with a less-lethal round in it at a person isn't deadly force.


Yes, there's no room to argue around those points.


+1 A person who takes up arms must seriously commit mentally to use of deadly force and accept the responsibility of the fact that they may end someone's life. Anyone may falter (or commit) in the moment of truth, but if you aren't mentally prepared prior to the fact, you should not take up the responsibility. There is just no half-way to it.

My .02

C. Rowe

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