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#228447 - 07/25/11 01:59 PM Re: Norweigan island mass shooting lessons? [Re: Blast]
7point82 Offline
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Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 478
Loc: Oklahoma
Originally Posted By: Blast
snip...
As for lessons learned, I'm thinking from here on out teaching my kids that if they find themselves in a situation like this that they need to hide and not come out until LOTS of police are on the scene rather than go running to the first police officer they see. frown

-Blast, horrified by this event.


Several have voiced similar thoughts and I'm inclined to think this is about the best the kids could be expected to do. The suggestions to turn off cell phones are good. IMO picking up an improvised weapon on their way to cover shouldn't be completely ruled out if we are talking about kids that are in their very late teens.

I did read about the shooting of the off-duty police officer but what I read made no mention of whether or not he was in uniform or armed. I know a single armed responder may offer little protection in some scenarios but they have a much better chance than an unarmed officer. Around here any gathering of that many kids would almost certainly have at least one armed officer on duty. I hate to say it but this would be particularly true if the kids were from politically well connected, upper middle-class or better families.
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#228449 - 07/25/11 02:04 PM Re: Norweigan island mass shooting lessons? [Re: 7point82]
Russ Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
Apparently a former PM was the primary target on the island: Norway shooting: killer 'confirms Gro Harlem Brundtland was main target' .
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#228451 - 07/25/11 02:41 PM Re: Norweigan island mass shooting lessons? [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Basecamp Offline
Member

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 107
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: Bingley
Originally Posted By: Basecamp
I am seeing a lot of victim mentality here. Why was one person able to kill 85 persons with a firearm and wound others on a small island which contained about 650 persons in the first place? I can understand the first few, depending on how quickly it took place, due to the police uniform. Run and hide and you will only die later, unless you are retreating and regrouping with a plan. Did those brave few on flight 93 run and hide or cower in the corner? Situational awareness is how you will identify the event you are part of. Next, you need a plan to remedy the threat. Every situation is different, but the death count would have been a lot lower if the folks on that island would have taken direct action to stop the gunman.


It takes a lot of training and courage to fight a shooter in such a surprise attack. Da Bing

It doesn’t take any training, just presence of mind and a desire to live… sometimes just fear of death. That may substitute for courage in this situation. Of course, any training or study you may have done along these lines would most likely help, but it’s not required.

Originally Posted By: Bingley

Are there group tactics against a single shooter?
Da Bing

Yes, as a matter of fact, training for an active shooter has been going on pretty regularly since JeffCo.

Originally Posted By: Bingley

Perhaps, but anything that has any chance of success would require quite a bit of preparation (training, setting up traps in the terrain, stocking projectiles like stones, etc.)
Da Bing

No training or traps required, just use the environment to your advantage and use what you’ve got. What’s the alternative?

Originally Posted By: Bingley

That leaves us with a spontaneous mass charge, which would have a high casualty rate with very little chance of success.
Da Bing

650 to 1… hmmm
The actual results were about 160 or more shot, 93 or more dead. If folks charged, the numbers would have been worse? I really do not believe that.

Originally Posted By: Bingley

You will need a huge suicide squad. Boys or not, the situation does not seem comparable to Flight 93.
Da Bing

Do or die? … close enough …

Originally Posted By: Bingley

Besides, we had a shooting on an army base. Did the unarmed soldiers fight the shooter?
Da Bing

No, how did it turn out for them?

Originally Posted By: Bingley

Situational awareness works for the "rational" sorts of crime.
Da Bing

It works for any situation, crime or not. It puts you in a better position to handle any situation you're in.

Originally Posted By: Bingley

In fact, it is often more valuable than a concealed firearm, since some criminal tactics leave you with no chance of drawing the gun when the threat presents itself. Only situational awareness will keep you safe from danger.
Da Bing

No, situational awareness does not keep you safe from danger, it improves your reaction time, minimizes loss and heightens your chances of survival.

Originally Posted By: Bingley

This type of mass shooting is a new form of crime, possible only with modern firearms. We may have to start catching people before they get to carry out the massacre. This seems like an almost impossible task.
Da Bing

History shows mass attacks happen, no matter what the weapon. You are getting into typical political mindset here.



Originally Posted By: Bingley
Originally Posted By: Susan

I'm sure there were adults there. But with just one person shooting, I always tend to think HE HAS TO RELOAD SOMETIME! Was it so inconceivable that someone might have the idea to get around him and bash his head in with a chunk of wood or a rock?


Reloading takes only maybe three seconds for trained people. Breivik had a Ruger Mini-14, which has 30-round magazines.
Da Bing

3 seconds would be considered slow. I don’t have the info on how he was armed, and it seems like more info is coming out.

Originally Posted By: Bingley

Let's say in a comparable scenario, the shooter shoots each person twice. That's around 200 rounds. He just needs 6-7 magazines, which can be carried neatly in a vest and in a tactical bag. If he has some training, he knows how to transition from rifle to pistol, which can stop the brave head bashers (Breivik also had a Glock).

Da Bing

Even if he had a 100 round magazine… he shot over 160 people!

I would think he could have been stopped before that number was reached.

News is reporting he may have had other help… still don’t know…


Edited by Basecamp (07/25/11 02:43 PM)

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#228456 - 07/25/11 03:23 PM Re: Norweigan island mass shooting lessons? [Re: Basecamp]
Russ Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5338
Loc: SOCAL
Lots of Monday morning quarterbacks in this thread. We are talking about children. You want a group of untrained teenagers to charge an active shooter? Really?
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#228466 - 07/25/11 04:11 PM Re: Norweigan island mass shooting lessons? [Re: Russ]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3601
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Russ
Lots of Monday morning quarterbacks in this thread. We are talking about children. You want a group of untrained teenagers to charge an active shooter? Really?


I shudder when I think about this. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. I don't know what I'd do. Instinct is going to take over. I've been at Scout camps with 300-400 youth plus leaders. No armed guards and nowhere to hid but the forest. I'm sure there are a few adult leaders that would try to take him out but the thought of the kids trying to do that sends shivers down my spine. Of course, the alternative is equally scary.
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#228469 - 07/25/11 04:22 PM Re: Norweigan island mass shooting lessons? [Re: Russ]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
Lots of Monday morning quarterbacks in this thread. We are talking about children. You want a group of untrained teenagers to charge an active shooter? Really?


Untrained is the operative word here. I do remember mugging an adult instructor with 2 other buddies (one went on to become a Paratrooper and the other a Rock ape) in the army cadets aged about 14 or 15. But this was in sand dunes at dusk, so there was an element of surprise, which we later got in trouble for because he lost his Enfield bolt rifle, assuming that we had run off with it. We did receive CQB training for the 3 star qualification aged about 15, which was a team activity i.e. a battle formation of 3-4 working together. Organising a response of untrained teenagers would be virtually impossible and dealing with/killing/disarming the assailant would be virtually none existent, especially if the camp had a no knifes rule in force.

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#228481 - 07/25/11 05:32 PM Re: Norweigan island mass shooting lessons? [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
bws48 Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/18/07
Posts: 831
Loc: Anne Arundel County, Maryland
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
Quote:
Lots of Monday morning quarterbacks in this thread. We are talking about children. You want a group of untrained teenagers to charge an active shooter? Really?


Untrained is the operative word here.



+1 Untrained. And unequipped. It takes trained and properly equipped professionals to effectively go up against a determined shooter using a semi-auto (or auto) rifle. Look what happened when the LA Police, only armed with side arms, went up against 2 determined shooters at the Bank of America shoot-out in LA in 1997. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

The LA police are no pushovers. Two guys did it to them. Unarmed untrained teenagers? No way. Run and hide was the only option; not a good one, but the only one.
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#228503 - 07/25/11 07:32 PM Re: Norweigan island mass shooting lessons? [Re: 7point82]
7point82 Offline
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Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 478
Loc: Oklahoma
Originally Posted By: 7point82
snip...

I did read about the shooting of the off-duty police officer but what I read made no mention of whether or not he was in uniform or armed. ...snip


I think I answered my own question.

Norwegian police do not carry firearms on a daily basis; they keep them locked down in the patrol cars, and if need arises they have to get permission by the police commissioner or someone authorized by him or her. If there is no time to contact a superior, a police officer may arm himself and anyone under his command.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Police_Service
_________________________
"There is not a man of us who does not at times need a helping hand to be stretched out to him, and then shame upon him who will not stretch out the helping hand to his brother." -Theodore Roosevelt

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#228519 - 07/25/11 09:44 PM Re: Norweigan island mass shooting lessons? [Re: dweste]
Basecamp Offline
Member

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 107
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: Russ
Lots of Monday morning quarterbacks in this thread. We are talking about children. You want a group of untrained teenagers to charge an active shooter? Really?


This is not an answer to only your question and point, but you address the thought or mindset in the most brief way.

The thread starter:
Originally Posted By: dweste
As we get details of what the media is calling the "mass shooting" outrage and tragedy at the island summer camp in Norway, what lessons can we learn? How could we prepare our kids, and ourselves, to survive the situation?


We, you and I, will never know all the details of this shooting. We may read every article about it and see every T.V. report. There are facts and indicators we will never have access to.

I can remember my teenage years, which included playing high school football, other sports and other physical activities. Yes, it is a freightening thought of teenagers facing an armed, determined gunman. But this gunman is actively shooting those teenagers, and we see some of how this incident turned out.

What it looks like is that they (news reports) have dropped the number killed by gunfire to 68. The number shot still looks to be around 160 or more. So, I ask, do you want an active shooter to gun down 160 or more teenagers... is that alright with you? No, I don't want my children to have to charge and attempt to disarm an active shooter. That would be a terrible and dangerous thing to do. But what would you rather they do, what is the alternative, to teach them to be murdered?

What took place didn't turn out too good for those kids in my view. I think there was a better thing to do. Monday morning quarterbacking? Maybe to some.

Let's say that some of them together, or even individually, started charging the shooter. Let's say 30 of them were killed and another 60 were shot. Is that a good thing? No, it is a terrible thing. If that did happen and we looked at it, I am sure most would now be saying "They should never have done that, they should have ran and hidden and waited for the trained, armed police to take care of it".

But, if we want to learn something from this, it would be that terrible things happen, and if we don't take action, they will continue to happen. We are looking at what the outcome of running and hiding was in this situation. Every situation is different. Awareness of what is going on around you is a start. Knowing the world you live in is a start. Running from the situation or ignoring reality in most situations won't get you killed, but in an "active shooter" situation, it is not the solution.

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#228525 - 07/25/11 10:03 PM Re: Norweigan island mass shooting lessons? [Re: 7point82]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
A 26-acre island with six buildings and 600 kids. That had to be like shooting fish in a barrel.

But one unarmed man did what he could. He wasn't on the island, but... German tourist rescues teens

Although he can only get a maximum sentence of 21 years, it is my fond wish that the other prisoners there see him as prisoners here view child molesters/killers.

But it does offend me that his 'manifesto' *gag* is being distributed.

Sue

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