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#228092 - 07/20/11 05:16 AM Re: Staying or leaving? Decision, decision... [Re: Teslinhiker]
Aussie Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 205
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Teslinhiker
Slight thread hijack, but may turn out to be eventually related to this thread.

Just read this news story and could help but think of Sue's scenario. It will interesting to see if any real life parallels develop here, if and when the couple are found...


FYI Seems those lost campers are safe and sound: http://www.calgarysun.com/2011/07/12/newlyweds-unaware-theyd-been-reported-missing-mounties


Of course Sue’s scenario has no answer. To come to a conclusion as to stay or go we need to add our own extra info and assumptions about the area and the situation.

For me, in my part of the world, I’d stay put. That’s because anywhere I could get to for a day trip is very likely to have another vehicle come along.
If its winter, I think I could get to a place where there may be only one vehicle per week, and probably on the weekend, so staying may entail a week’s wait; but the rest of the year I think it would be less than a week’s wait.

Having said I’d wait I guess I’d add the qualifier that I may walk a “short distance” to a nearby intersection because that could double the chance of being found, and I’d put an obstacle on the road to force a vehicle to slow or stop. If there are no intersections nearby, then there would be no real point in walking half way along the road because any vehicle which comes half way along is doing so with the intention of driving the entire track, so I’be better off saving my energy and waiting.

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#228097 - 07/20/11 10:41 AM Re: Staying or leaving? Decision, decision... [Re: Susan]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Originally Posted By: Susan
I didn't want to hijack Teslinhiker's thread.

I am curious as to where you draw the line between self-rescue and waiting for someone to do it for you.

Some are fairly obvious: lost or injured comes first to mind. Putting yourself in a worse situation by leaving a vehicle shelter and known conditions for unknown conditions seems kind of dumb and often slows rescue.

But when you know where you are and how to get out, such as with Teslinhiker's scenario, what is your thinking?

Keeping it simple, here's a scenario:

You're up in the mountains on a forest service/logging road, about 60 miles from the nearest services. A fairly large dead tree (mostly trunk) came down right across the hood of your car. The hood is crushed, the front axle is on the ground, the windshield is broken. No injuries, but you're really PO'd.

You're out of cell tower range, and no one knows you even left home. This was just going to be a day trip/hike.

The weather is decent, nothing serious in the weather forecast. Sixty-degree days, forty-degree nights.

Terrain is gradual downhill, steeper in some places. You plan on just following the roads you came in on. Snow is melting in the higher country, lots of little streams.

You and your SO are in decent shape, but nothing special. You don't weight 350 lbs, you have no known health issues.

Both of you always carry some survival gear in a pack:
* Shelter: You each have a tarp, a 3-season jacket and a hat;
* Water: you have one 12-pack of 16-oz bottles of water;
* Fire: Bic lighter, matches, cotton & Vasoline; lots of deadfall all over.
* Knives: 2 fixed-blades, 2 Leatherman;
* Food: You have some trail mix, granola bars, some apples, a few tea bags and those salty seasoning packets from Ramen Soup.
* First aid: simple basics;
* Signaling: mirror, surveyors tape, reflective mylar emerg blanket. You'll take the cell phones and keep trying them, maybe you can get a friend to pick you up, or to call a tow truck.
* Misc stuff like cord, small fishing kit, etc.

So, do you grab your gear and head out, or start a smokey signal fire and wait for rescue, possibly diverting aid to yourselves from others who might really need it?

What would you consider the primary dangers?

Sue


Stupid Question. Sorry smile Note the item's that I have highlighted.
Your car has just been BB'd by a Widowmaker. The deadfall is just screaming that staying here is suicide by widowmaker and no one knows that you are there. So who exactly is going to be looking for you?
So leave. Put your gear together. Cannibalise what you can of the truck and go. Quickly and quietly. Whilst you still can.


Edited by Leigh_Ratcliffe (07/20/11 10:45 AM)
Edit Reason: Clarification.
_________________________
I don't do dumb & helpless.

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#228099 - 07/20/11 01:42 PM Re: Staying or leaving? Decision, decision... [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Originally Posted By: Leigh_Ratcliffe
So who exactly is going to be looking for you?


Perhaps the folks whose job it is to be curious about the plumes of dirty smoke you create from the fallen widowmakers aka firewood?

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#228115 - 07/20/11 10:26 PM Re: Staying or leaving? Decision, decision... [Re: Susan]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
I have posted two questions recently, just because I'm curious about how people think.

First, there was the question about the earthquake, collapsed freeway overpasses, and trading cars.

The results (just in general terms) were that 41% of the people would be willing to trade their cars with another person, and 58% said they would park it and walk, or just wait for help. (I was only interested in the car-trade part, not if they stayed or left).

There wasn't any correct answer.

On this last question, 66% people said they would hike out, and 33% said they would stay and await rescue.

This one was kind of a trick.

I gave as many options as I could to get you to leave: a clear, obvious path, reasonable health, water, food, some gear and shelter.

If your car could get in there, you could walk out the same way.

Just because your cell phone didn't work there doesn't mean it might not work on your way out.

The closer to the main road you got, the more likely you would be able to flag down a car or State Patrol/County Sheriff.

The feeling I got (right or wrong) was that some people might feel that leaving was just too much effort, or that it was a matter of the Fear Factor: the thought of being outdoors at night maybe being the main one. Don't laugh at fear of the dark: it's very real and affects a lot more people than you suspect. It's really fear of the unknown, I think, but our modern, technological society kind of fosters it.

Another issue is that many people only look at the big picture and it looks too scary, overall. But if you sit down and think how to do it in bite-sized chunks, it might look more do-able.

And... wouldn't it be a nice thing to do it and KNOW that you were capable of handling it?

Comments?

Sue

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#228119 - 07/20/11 11:20 PM Re: Staying or leaving? Decision, decision... [Re: Susan]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1413
Loc: Cranbrook BC (Finally)
Originally Posted By: Susan

The feeling I got (right or wrong) was that some people might feel that leaving was just too much effort, or that it was a matter of the Fear Factor: the thought of being outdoors at night maybe being the main one. Don't laugh at fear of the dark: it's very real and affects a lot more people than you suspect. It's really fear of the unknown, I think, but our modern, technological society kind of fosters it.

Another issue is that many people only look at the big picture and it looks too scary, overall. But if you sit down and think how to do it in bite-sized chunks, it might look more do-able.

And... wouldn't it be a nice thing to do it and KNOW that you were capable of handling it?

Comments?
Sue


Sue, you make some valid points in your post. As you so well stated, there is no correct answer. Every person here has different technical /survival skills along with wide ranges of wilderness "ground time" and I don't hold any different opinion of those who would rather stay versus those who like myself, would rather hike out.

Furthermore, you mentioned that bite-sized chunks is the key and that is great thinking. A 60 mile hike divided into well thought out and balanced hiking/resting segments is very doable for my SO and I based on our experience and skill levels especially when sticking to the FS roads which is part of this particular scenario. Had this scenario involved cross country travel over more formidable terrain and coupled with bad weather, then our decision would probably be different depending on the overall scenario.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#228125 - 07/21/11 12:15 AM Re: Staying or leaving? Decision, decision... [Re: Susan]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
Don't laugh at fear of the dark: it's very real and affects a lot more people than you suspect. It's really fear of the unknown, I think, but our modern, technological society kind of fosters it.


I have actually come across folks who didn't even realise that it gets dark out in wilderness, because they have never been in an area where there is no electric light. It actually is quite funny to see the fear, especially when you tell them about everything that is lurking in the dark. But then again I thought the film 'The Blair Witch Project' was actually a black comedy when I first saw the film. laugh

The dark does heighten the other senses though and having an Am Fear Liath Mor circling the tent a top of Ben Macdui is no laughing matter. wink

There are certain areas where you do get an uncomfortable feeling where you definitely wouldn't want to set up camp though. For example you wouldn't want to camp near the 'deils or devils head'



or in the Valley of the Kings outside Luxor in Egypt.





Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (07/21/11 12:27 AM)

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#228137 - 07/21/11 04:14 AM Re: Staying or leaving? Decision, decision... [Re: Susan]
Eric Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 323
Loc: Iowa
Sue,

Excellent points about the scenario and under different personal circumstances my answer would change. But I can't seem separate my reality from the scenario presented.

My variant of this includes my wife, son and daughter. My 6 year old daughter could probably hike out with me, heck she might end up dragging me along the last bit smile . My son is older and has Down Syndrome with some mobility limitations and some other challenges so he probably won't be walking out, at least not without more supplies and support. Similarly, my wife has some mobility challenges due to foot surgery and a long walk over several days just isn't in the cards.

So while I think the hypothetical couple could walk out, I don't fit the profile and my answer is colored by that.

Good discussion and I keep learning so much here.

Thanks,

-Eric
_________________________
You are never beaten until you admit it. - - General George S. Patton


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#228151 - 07/21/11 05:05 PM Re: Staying or leaving? Decision, decision... [Re: Eric]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
Eric, every decision MUST be colored by the individual situation!

Can you imagine trying to hike out (even on roads) with five very young children? Pushing a wheelchair on rocky ground? Leading an elderly couple who have heart conditions?

Anyone who bases their decision on someone else's opinion or situation certainly isn't anyone I would want to be around in a survival situation.

Sue

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#228172 - 07/21/11 11:14 PM Re: Staying or leaving? Decision, decision... [Re: Susan]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3601
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Susan
Eric, every decision MUST be colored by the individual situation!

Anyone who bases their decision on someone else's opinion or situation certainly isn't anyone I would want to be around in a survival situation.

Sue


Agreed! Doing something strictly because someone else would or could isn't a very good decision-making model. Similarly, we need to keep that in mind when armchair other people's decisions. Trying to figure out what we would have done is very different from decreeing what they should have done.
_________________________
Mom & Adventurer

You can find me on YouTube here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT9fpZEy5XSWkYy7sgz-mSA

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#228200 - 07/22/11 02:37 AM Re: Staying or leaving? Decision, decision... [Re: Susan]
Eric Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 323
Loc: Iowa
I agree that real life scenarios must be based on real life capabilities and limitations.

The scenario at the top of the thread posed a hypothetical situation involving two adults in decent shape. In trying to respond to that scenario I keep coming to stay put despite all the seeming advantages of trying to walk out and just wanted to provide some perspective on why to others.

Thanks for the excellent discussion points.

-Eric
_________________________
You are never beaten until you admit it. - - General George S. Patton


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