Say one has decided to just use wood fires for cooking. I see wood stoves advertised such as the Bush Buddy, The Back Country Boiler, or the Vargo Hexagon. But why carry a wood stove? Why not just make do with whatever materials are at hand? I have some ideas on this, but I'm curious as to what other people's insights are.

HJ

people don't know how to make a real wood fire these days so they want a gizmo to help them along.a wood fire that really burns hot,stays lit and provides a bed of hot coals is just about a lost art in the age of self lighting-turn the knob stoves.if your just going to heap up some wood and somehow get it going with a stick holding a pot of water over it you could heat up something to eat.really cooking is another matter.it calls for using the fire in the right burning sequence to boil,simmer and bake a real meal.
the Kelly kettle for getting hot water fast from just about anything that would burn is the only wood fired stove i can see that has any use.the other is the fan driven Sierra stove.i have one and the only place i could see any use for it would be on a trip that called for hot food often with the lightest weight in the pack..no fuel carts or bottles..

Keep the fire contained/leave no trace, emit less pollution, use less fuel and, recharge your batteries

When I discovered the outdoors, campfires were the only realistic option. When our day hikes got a little too long, we would stop, build a fire, throw in a can of beans, and enjoy. We all got pretty good at building fires, even when conditions were not ideal. When I started doing winter trips, I was introduced to white gas stoves - perfect for the cold and wet.

With the development of modern stoves, especially gas canisters, I have basically given up on wood fires because of their environmental/aesthetic impacts and fire safety. The ability to light a fire remains an essential survival skill. If I light one now, it is a pretty good sign that I am in trouble and need assistance.

For both safety and efficiency, a wood fire should be enclosed somehow. I would use either materials at hand to construct a firebox or excavate a "Dakota" style firepit, if at all possible.

Wood gas stoves are fun gadgets, but you are still relying on the local availability of good fuel. It is much easier to throw a gas canister (or a Tragia alcohol stove) in the pack. The problem is solved for a very trivial cost.

The kelly kettle is an expensive, heavy, single purpose overrated gimmick with moving parts

You can equal or surpass it with a hobo stove, a regular pot and metal pot skirt (heavy foil + 3 screws to maintain 10mm gap)

The outside of the pot alone offers double the surface area than the internal chimney of the kettle , provided you use the skirt, and you don't lose any of the functionality of a pot, and its about 8 times cheaper

Add an improved stove (woodgas...) and the kettle can't compete

A good wood stove...

...allows you to use less fuel for equal heat.
...is far quicker to set up than a regular fire.
...keeps your fire contained, and thus help prevent wild fires.
...can be set practically anywhere (with common sense).
...help you leave no trace.
...allows more even heat than a regular fire.
...can be used as a pot stand and/or hot plate.
...will not be a thing to gather around for chatting and guitar playing.
...will rub soot on all your gear unless you clean it, and I mean, really clean it after every use.
...will make your gear smell like smoke, despite how well you cleaned the stove.
...will get sticky spots if you use resinous fuel like pine cones or pine wood.

A bad wood stove will do more of the bottom bits and less from the top of the list.

And besides, most of the wood burning stoves are ridiculously expensive for what they are. Metal containers with holes in them. Some with battery powered fans (provides more heat faster, but requires batteries and pretty much adds the possibility for wood stoves to malfunction).

I agree with Canoedogs that a properly made fire is far superior to any gizmo you have, no matter how shiny or feature-laden.


-jh

I have a small coffee can sized wood stove and I find that I am using it less and less as the years go by. The main reason is that although the stove is handy, stopping to heat up water or lunch/dinner takes 2-3x as long as a similar sized gas or canister stove which will boil water in ~3 minutes in almost in any weather conditions I expect to find in my AO.

As for the reasons for a wood stove vs a open fire. The wood stove I have is faster and is self contained and can be fed very small pieces of wood which burns very well in the confined contours of the can. Whereas an open fire, you need to find a good spot for the fire, gather enough wood, build the fire, find a few rocks to balance your cooking pots etc then heat up whatever water or food. After this, the fire needs to be safely extinguished which requires water that is not always readily available...and without using your drinking water. By time you get through all this, the 10 minute break turns into twice as long.

The one glaring aspect of open fires is the ecological damage and blight they add to the landscape. In NA, there are not many backcountry hiking areas left that have not been visually scarred by the remmants of open fires. Around here, the .gov has slowly realized this over the years and has added properly designed open fire pits along or near many many trails that has drastically reduced the wanton damage to the eco-system.

With all the above said. In a true survival situation, a large, hot open fire is an extremely valuable resource and which your life and hope for rescue may ultimately depend on...

Almost sounds like our cub-scout troop should be learning about stoves rather than how to make a fire.

The paradox is that fire making is a really essential survival skill, but is a practice with significant ecological consequences. How do you stay proficient in a rarely used skill? I guess that is why more and more of us carry handy dandy lighters, tinder, and fire starters.

I carry an empty can that used to be a rolled oats container. That's my survival stove. There's a couple of holes already punched in the sides (at the bottom) - air vents for a fire. I use this particular can because it's well-made and not too big. It's good enough to boil some water for tea or heat soup for dinner. I do keep it in my emergency rucksack, because otherwise I might spend a fair amount of time scrounging for an alternative can. But it's not a problem - I do also use it for storage in the rucksack (pile a bunch of stuff inside it).

cheers,
Pete #2

Why anyone would pay £60 not including delivery and tax to the UK for a Bushbuddy is beyond me when you can make one with just access to an electric drill or dremel tool and have the right tin cans.



Lidl (UK discount store) Dried Skimmed Milk Tin (£1.89) and a Freshona Tin of New Potatoes (£0.26)





Yep a perfect mechanical fit and no sharp edges with a good can opener (Kuhn Rikon Safety LidLifters Auto Safety Lidlifter). The Basis for a wood gasifier stove.

All that needs to be done is to drill some holes in the base of the Milbona Can and at the bottom of the Freshona can (to form a grate) and then again at the top end etc. Weight is around 160gms.

If it corrodes into dust or you cannot be bothered to clean up the improvised wood stove you just make another one (takes about 10 minutes)

There is not much to the Bushbuddy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdwoYrRkf0k

Here's another cheaper-than-dirt wood burning "stove" that weights less than any commercial model I've seen, and can compete with the top 10 on speed.

The wall-part is my pot stand/wind shield for my usual alcohol stove (made from an old can), and the bottom is a stainless steel lid from an old candy jar. Total weight, 40g. Total cost, 5 minutes of work.



-jh

That reminds me, are there any wood stoves with piezo-electric ignition?

HJ

Yeah, that's about the size of it.

When I first started backpacking, we cooked with a coffee can with a long wire looped as a bail through holes poked in the sides of the can. We had to pick spots with wood. My job as a boy was to gather fire wood, which was time consuming even with dad doing camp set up and me gathering wood.

The plus side is that I learned how to make a fire from a guy who really knew how to make fires. Dad started hiking in the 30's and 40's. By the time I came around in the 60's, he had already been cooking on wood fires for a couple of decades. Relying on a wood fire for your food definitely increases your motivation, and repetition really gets it down to a science.

HJ

Well, hopefully both.

Fire does scar the land (or can), and gathering wood in high altitude or heavily visited areas can really strip the land, so fires on a regular basis aren't all that great of an idea. But in areas where you won't leave much of an impact (areas with fire pits or remote areas) and where there's plenty of wood, it's a good skill to have for survival purposes.

HJ

Mostly efficiency I'd imagine, at least for me if I were to carry one. I've never used wood stove for actual cooking but have made a wood gasification stove with a gallon paint can. In my test boil, for the amount of wood it consumes, there's no way you can boil the water with an open fire.

I keep a Kelly Kettle in my SUV and one in my teardrop trailer. If I run out of JetBoil fuel on a camp trip it'll be handy. If I'm stranded in the car somewhere, it'll be very handy.

The Vargo Hexagon is now in my backpack for day hikes. Weighs hardly anything and is an efficient means of building a little fire with little found fuel and it will hold a Titanium mug (which I also routinely carry) or small pot. I won't carry a fuel canister on a day hike. In winter, I might carry a thermos of hot coffee or cocoa.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Am also now in the habit of carrying a Bic lighter, matches and firesteel.

Just in case.

a good source of plans for making tin can wood stoves is any 1940-50-early 60's camping book."tin can cooking" was all the rave for awhile.it started as a cheap way to make camping gear and went on to be a "hobby hobo" item and finely counter culture reject of store bought gear....i have no idea of what it's morphed into now.

Ultralight™ backpacking gear.

-jh

Since this thread started because of HJ's question to me I suppose it would be nice for me to make a comment or two (plus, how can I refrain from commenting on an interesting topic?). Juhirvon gave a quick rundown on the advantages of a wood stove.

Every day in the field for the first 20+ years I built a squaw wood fire (dead pine branches from the lower part of a living tree) to, as one of my mentors called it in his New England accent "boil the noon kettle". In the Rockies of the time it was simply a matter of taking the last couple of minutes before lunch to collect a double handful of wood no larger than your thumb, gathering 3 rocks and in 5 min or so the kettle was boiling. By the time lunch was over, the fire was out and cool, a little water and turning the rocks over and placing them where they were in the first place. As I began to travel and work in other areas - particularly the Antarctic and the tundra of Alaska a stove became necessary and a 123 became a regular part of my kit. The use of fire in the Rockies was becomming less favorable and I began to use the stove there as well. I later added an XGK for travel for the fuel availablilty, but used the 123 (and now a Pocket Rocket) for day trips and light overnights.

I still think there are many times where a contained wood fire is OK and I prefer the sounds, smells and ambiance of a wood fire. My thoughts on a wood stove (and I have little experience with one) like a canteen cup stove or the Vargo is that I could use it more often than a rock circle and with less cleanup. That would be a + in my mind. I brought it up here because I can always get good information from the group to help with such decisions.

Respectfully,

Jerry

I think that having the option to build a makeshift wood stove out of cans is a really good survival technique. Take a look at Japan right now - lots of wood debris after the tsunami and the earthquake. Initially some of the debris may be soaked with seawater, but it will dry out. It's going to take these people a long time to re-build. I'm sure they will be using wood for fuel for quite a while.

In the woods - foraging for tinder serves a very valuable purpose of removing dead undergrowth that is a fire hazard.

In the city, it's helpful to have some small stuff for tinder. Although bits of cardboard do kinda' work, it's not as good as actually having small bits of wood.

A saw is not so good for preparing tinder ... there's nothing like a small tomahawk for this purpose. But they're very heavy to carry in your pack. I have been wondering about getting one of the lightweight tomahawks, like the one in the link below. But have not tried it out, and am not sure if it's worth getting. The price is not bad, though ($52).

http://sogknives.com/store/F09.html

Pete #2

I much prefer a stout knife that can be used to baton / split wood, carve fuzz sticks, shave off thin curls, and provide the steel to create spark with flint.

As Jerry mentioned, there are many area environments and terrain where a wood stove or fire is not conducive to a hot lunch or dinner. This area (which we are going back to for a week long hiking trip in late June) is a prime example where a modern liquid fueled or cannister stove is mandatory...

John ... True. Pretty country!! But if you're above the tree line, firewood is going to be a bit scarce. ha! Ha!!

Pete #2

I have always been able to acquire adequate tinder simply with my bare hands. You want really fine, thin fuel. Look for dead twigs on standing trees, well in the interior where they are shielded from moisture. Bits of dead bark work quite well. Stuff lying on the ground is usually too wet to work very well.

Bark from Utah juniper is absolutely superb. It can be easily lit directly from a match - you would think it was soaked in gasoline. Pine knots from decayed logs work extraordinarily well - full of pitch, they can also be lit directly with a match.

For negligible weight, it is a good idea to carry cotton balls and some kind of petroleum jelly - a never fail backup.

A good wood burning camping stove will utilize less wood than just cooking over a campfire. It is more efficient, and a bit easier to use a small cooking pot. They are not bad, and are easily built. There are a few techniques which can give you the same effect without carrying anything, such as a prairie stove where you dig a small hole, with a tunnel for air and build the fire in the hole with your pot over the top. It is dangerous in some forests though, with so much rotting vegetation instead of sand or dirt. You run the risk of starting a fire without knowing it.

Depending on the way you pack it, a wood stove may even allow you to carry a pre-set fire with you (if you can spare the space of having the stove full of twigs, tree bark and wood chips inside, just add fire).

You can protect and contain it with a simple plastic bag. We've done this a few times when we know it's going to rain a lot later. Once your dry patch is burning well, you can add damp or dry firewood bit by bit.

I usually just carry a alcohol stove.

-jh

Zen Stoves has an interesting run down on types of wood stoves.

HJ

For after disaster use in an urban or suburban setting the one thing may places have is wood. Propane, gasoline, kerosene, butane and electricity might all be expected to be in short supply. Even sunshine might be hard to come by in some situations but in those areas, even assuming there are no trees or woods, wood is easy to get. Look at after the tornado, hurricane or tsunami photographs, lots of wood from demolished buildings is piled up. If you had a hatchet or say you would have more wood to burn than you would ever need.

In rural areas and wilderness camping in most areas you have wide swaths of forest and scrub brush that is full of suitable things to feed a wood stove.

All this talk of wood stoves brings back fond memories. In grade 2, I got a hold of a #10 coffee can, a church key and Dad's tin snips. I punched air holes at the base and the top and made a slot for loading tiny branches. Then I grabbed my kid sister and a gal friend from class, both of whom doubted my skills at cooking in the out doors. We hiked to the perimeter of town, then I fired up the can stove with a couple of paper matches/toilet paper/fingerlings of wood and proceeded to cook an egg and some bacon on the top rim of the can. I was as proud as a peacock! I was "da man"!

Never told my parents though because I knew I would catch royal heck for "playing with fire".

Nowadays, I am more interested in making my own copy of a wood fire stove to prevent any impact on nature similar to this stove: http://www.churchillrivercanoestore.com/...rt&Itemid=1 Having a stove that will prevent any burn marks on the soil or will eliminate the need for leaving scorched unsightly rocks to scare the trail just makes sense.

teach them both! knowledge is power and so is having options. we had a camp a few weeks ago where we set-up a stove station and a campfire station. they got to try out lots of different stoves and firestarting materials.

Exactly.

I use something very similar to the Churchill river stove, but a much simpler (and cheaper!) design. Essentially just a bunch of steel plates hinged together with wire (the simplest possible hinge: Make a hole, thread a wire, twist). It gets the work done.

My "hinged steel plate fireplace" also eliminates the need for disposable grills (I hate those with an intense passion).


A paradox, perhaps - but in really remote areas I don't see many problems with lighting a fire without any stove or fireplace. Usually, you will find old fire places at the most obvious camp site places anyway - just use that. And if not, the environmental impact is marginal anyway if done properly. IMHO, the problem is larger in areas with more people - typically the easiest accessible recreational/semi-wilderness areas/parks close to population centers. IMHO, more people equals less environmental footprint of the individual if you are not to "wear out" the area.

5 lbs, 8oz for the small. Yipes! Definitely not meant to be carried on the back.

HJ

For that much poundage, I could carry two Pocket Rockets, four gas canisters, cook faster, and save a lot of weight (as well as money), with less immediate environmental impact (leaving out the environmental footprint of production of the gas canisters).

Right, those are for canoe trippers who like to cook with wood. There are many places where this is still acceptable. You can get a couple of cook pots and a coffee pot on one of those without uglying the landscape.

I have one of those charcoal chimney starters ($10 on sale) that would actually make a pretty sweet portable wood stove. Too heavy to backpack except for a base camp, but handy for canoe or car camping. A swatch of insulation under the base would protect a picnic table or forest floor. One of these days I'll get around to firing it up.

$108 for small, I still like my $5 paint can woodgas stove better lol!

Keep in mind you can make the same stove/fireplace/etc. out of scrap sheet metal and a discarded oven grate for $0 plus your time.

Not that there's anything wrong with a paint-can stove. For one-person use, it's light and highly portable. As you know, you can't buy the satisfaction that comes from using something you made with your own hands.

You ain't kidding. Just think of what a nice stove you could buy with $108.

HJ

Okay, I buy that. But if you are in a place where you have a more-or-less infinite supply of ready evergreen sticks, you might reasonably ask why you're schlepping two week's worth of fuel for cooking. So you use the ready fuel. But the possibility of lousy weather demands that you carry a smokin' white gas stove as a backup. Most canoe trippers do. We really do like to eat, regardless of the weather. (And you can carry a lot of frozen steaks in a canoe. With the makings for fresh-baked biscuits. And suitable refreshments, and hot desserts. Rough it? heck no, we prefer to smooth it.)

I get the feeling that canoeists live in an entirely different universe than backpackers. Beef jerky, anyone?

Could I surmise that "suitable refreshments" come in cans that fizz when you pop them open?

I can testify to the comfort level of canoe trips... been there, done that

Another ting I'd like to point out: Not all "backpack" trips are created equal. These days, most of my trips are VERY short and family oriented. For trips involving my 4 and 6 year old kids, I don't mind carrying a whole bunch of comfort items that I would never consider for a long distance day hike.

Been reading this thread and thinking a bit. I carry a 123 for backpack light camping, and a Coleman propane stove for car/heavy camping. Works for us.

But the simplicity of punching a few holes in the bottom of a coffee can as a field expedient wood stove seems to be a fine idea for a back-up to the first choice stoves. All I need to add to the kit is an old coffee can, which, with its plastic top, can be used as a storage container for other things, and a "church key" type can opener. This is a trivial amount of weight. Serves a useful purpose when not transformed into a wood stove, useful as a wood stove if needed, and cheaply replaced after use. I can't think of a good reason not to have this option available.

Am I missing something? So, maybe I'm asking why not carry an old coffee can and a can opener?

It's a little bulky, but if you've got room in your pack and you don't mind the weight...

HJ

I was thinking of using an Coleman fuel can and cutting the ends and one side out and then folding it flat for carry. I can fashion a grill to be used on top. Then use the cut off side panel to fashion a double bottom. Whole thing should weigh very little and the cost is negligible.

Interesting. Post pix if you get a chance.

HJ

I hear ya harmless. My almost 8 year old loves camping and canoing and it's important to me that it stay that way. He really wants to do the Survivorman thing, and though we play along with him and encourage the learning, we're not going to totally rough it with him. If it's not enjoyable it's not worth it.

We're Scouts so try our best to take care of the earth with a "leave No trace" approach. He loves a wood fire, as do I, and a wood stove affords us more opportunity when a firepit isn't available.