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#219469 - 03/16/11 11:03 PM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: falcon5000]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4858
Loc: SOCAL
falcon5000 -- Themarox might be what your friend needs.
Quote:
. . . In Russia, Themarox is being used to absorb Strontium and Cesium from the radiation
poisoning from Chernobyl. The results so far are outstanding. . . .
A lot of the links on the web are in Japanese, such as Adya Clarity Minerals (Themarox) YouTube.

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#219470 - 03/16/11 11:33 PM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: Ann]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3561
Loc: Spring, Texas
Quote:
I'm not an expert, but based on what I've read the water itself cannot be radioactive, rather it's suspended particles that emit radiation. Remove the particles and the water becomes safe, or at the very least a whole lot more safe than it was.

Distillation might be the safest bet.

One of my thoughts is flocculating might be helpful. I've been researching it lately, and from what I read of some backpackers it can possibly be as simple as getting some alum from the store, stirring and letting it settle correctly, and then pouring the water off. It seems like it'd remove stuff that normal filters don't, as I've been researching it with regards to expedient fluoride filtration--carbon does not remove fluoride from water, but flocculants do. I'm not familiar with all the reasoning behind this but it might be something to look in to with regards to removing radioactive ions.

I'd still probably want to distill it if at all possible. I'm eager to hear others' thoughts on this matter.


Ann, you are absolutely right about distillation and somewhat right about flocculation. Flocculation will cause suspended solids to clump together and fall out to the bottom of your water container. However, it generally won't remove ions. Ions "bind" to liquid water molecules in a manner much like static cling. This makes it very hard to remove them from liquid water. If you convert the water to steam the ions can no longer cling to the water molecules.

Note that you'll be concentrating radioactive particles in the boiler part of your still, so treat that with caution.

-Blast
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#219474 - 03/17/11 12:09 AM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: MartinFocazio]
falcon5000 Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 662
Thanks Russ and some insights on boiling Blast. I am also having difficulties getting gear over to him with the focus on aircraft delivering humanitarian and evacuation needs. This is a normal thing we are use to in hurricane disasters.
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#219475 - 03/17/11 12:28 AM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: Pete]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Pete
But this also means that the statements by the NRC chairman are indeed based on factual observations of the site.

The TV broadcast just mentioned that the Japanese government does not have any direct observers at Fukushima Daiichi, but apparently the NRC does?! So the NRC is getting better, more direct info than the prime minister, who must rely on TEPCO to tell him what's going on!

I'm not sure if that means the NRC has someone literally inside the plant, but that doesn't sound like a good situation for the Japanese government as far as information gathering.

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#219477 - 03/17/11 12:44 AM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: falcon5000]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4858
Loc: SOCAL
falcon5000: -- I've used that stuff (marketed as Adja) and have seen the "flocculation" although we've used the term precipitation. Lots of stuff comes out of solution.

Blast: "Ions "bind" to liquid water molecules" -- why not to the solid particles suspended in solution?

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#219487 - 03/17/11 02:42 AM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: Russ]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3561
Loc: Spring, Texas
Originally Posted By: Russ
falcon5000: -- I've used that stuff (marketed as Adja) and have seen the "flocculation" although we've used the term precipitation. Lots of stuff comes out of solution.

Blast: "Ions "bind" to liquid water molecules" -- why not to the solid particles suspended in solution?



Hydrogen Bonding occurs between the charged ions and the polar (having both positive and negative parts) water molecules. Positive ions (cations) will associate with quasi-negatively charged oxygen atom of multiple water molecules and negative (anions) will associate with the quasi-positive charged hydrogens of water molecules. This is what allows things like salt (NaCl) to dissolve in water. The salt disassociates into Na+ and Cl- ions. The Na+ ions attracts a shell of water molecules around due to the attraction between it and the oxygen atoms on the water molecules. Cl- does the same but with the hydrogen atoms. Solid particles already have their + and - parts already neutralized and so don't have any charges to attract the ions.

When you turn the water to steam you are increasing the rate of movement (speed) of the water molecules. They end up moving so fast that they break away from the ions. Imagine tying a magnet to a string, attaching (but not tying) a second magnet to the first and then spinning this over your head. Eventually the second magnet will be flung off the first. Same thing with ion-water bonds. The "flung" ions then begin re-bonding to their original counter ions and these resulting molecules are too big/heavy to evaporate like water does so they are left behind while the water distills away.

-Blast
_________________________
Blogging the Borderlands
Wild Edibles Blog
I miss OBG.

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#219489 - 03/17/11 03:16 AM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: Blast]
Desperado Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 1530
Loc: DFW, Texas
Originally Posted By: Blast
Originally Posted By: Russ
falcon5000: -- I've used that stuff (marketed as Adja) and have seen the "flocculation" although we've used the term precipitation. Lots of stuff comes out of solution.

Blast: "Ions "bind" to liquid water molecules" -- why not to the solid particles suspended in solution?



Hydrogen Bonding occurs between the charged ions and the polar (having both positive and negative parts) water molecules. Positive ions (cations) will associate with quasi-negatively charged oxygen atom of multiple water molecules and negative (anions) will associate with the quasi-positive charged hydrogens of water molecules. This is what allows things like salt (NaCl) to dissolve in water. The salt disassociates into Na+ and Cl- ions. The Na+ ions attracts a shell of water molecules around due to the attraction between it and the oxygen atoms on the water molecules. Cl- does the same but with the hydrogen atoms. Solid particles already have their + and - parts already neutralized and so don't have any charges to attract the ions.

When you turn the water to steam you are increasing the rate of movement (speed) of the water molecules. They end up moving so fast that they break away from the ions. Imagine tying a magnet to a string, attaching (but not tying) a second magnet to the first and then spinning this over your head. Eventually the second magnet will be flung off the first. Same thing with ion-water bonds. The "flung" ions then begin re-bonding to their original counter ions and these resulting molecules are too big/heavy to evaporate like water does so they are left behind while the water distills away.

-Blast


I knew it. Y'all just had to keep asking questions until Blast pulled out his lab coat and made me remember I am not that bright.

I did like the magnet part. It made the whole thing visual for me. Where were you when I was trying to be interested in Junior High, and High School. Once I was in college, I was paying for it, so I damn well paid attention.

And took a lot of remedial classes to make up for the stuff in High School.....


Edited by Desperado (03/17/11 03:18 AM)
Edit Reason: Can't even spell all that well, what make me think I understand Physics and Chemistry
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#219493 - 03/17/11 05:23 AM Re: KI pills sold out in US [Re: Arney]
Mark_M Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 295
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Arney
A different tack, but has anyone else noticed that KI pills are sold out everywhere here in the US? I mentioned last night that my friend in Tokyo is bugging out of Japan for her children's sake. Earlier in the day, though, my friend had said it is sold out everywhere over there and was asking if I could get any over here and send it. I thought it would be easy to find it somewhere but it appears to be sold out all over, which surprised me.

Either the normal supply is rather small, or else demand over here is much higher than I anticipated. I'm curious if Americans are buying KI because of fears of radiation drifting from Japan, or if they're primarily worried about their local nuclear power plants?

I ran across this article about the situation.


I've been searching for KI most of the day without success. Those who still have it are price gouging, in one case raising the price almost 4,000% ($395 for a 14-tablet supply! Really, BP Medical Supplies?). But most everyone I've contacted is quote 4 to 8 week delivery.

And no, it's not for me. The company I work for has over 10,000 employees in Japan, and my group deals with several dozen regularly. When we heard they were not available in Japan we were going to put together a fedex, but so far no luck in finding them in-stock.
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#219504 - 03/17/11 11:55 AM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: Blast]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4858
Loc: SOCAL
Thank's Blast, that is an explanation even I can understand.

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#219507 - 03/17/11 12:54 PM Re: Fukushima Nuke Plant Explosion [Re: MartinFocazio]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Maybe someone noted this earlier, but I just realized that the spent fuel cooling ponds in reactors 4,5,6 may not actually be holding "spent fuel" as in depeleted fuel rods. Reactors 4,5,6 were already shut down and emptied for inspections when the quake hit, not for refueling, so to me, that that raises the possibility that those fuel rods were intended to be reloaded into the core and are still hot enough to restart fission (outside the protection of a containment vessel!) in the worst case scenario. Or maybe they are being inspected at a natural refueling point, I don't know.

Does anyone else know what's in 4,5,6?


Edited by Arney (03/17/11 01:13 PM)

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