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#218524 - 03/07/11 12:05 AM Re: Fill your gas tanks, folks. [Re: Susan]
RayW Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/06/01
Posts: 550
Loc: Orlando, FL
Originally Posted By: Susan


When the gas hits $5.50 or more per gallon, I wonder how often the performance cars will get out of the garage?

Sue


My pickup gets 16 mpg in town and my Corvette gets 24 mpg on the same drive. So now i have a good excuse to drive the performance car everyday laugh

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#218525 - 03/07/11 12:15 AM Re: Fill your gas tanks, folks. [Re: Russ]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2148
Loc: Bucks County PA
$3.45 in southeast PA.

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#218527 - 03/07/11 12:27 AM Re: Fill your gas tanks, folks. [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
The Nissan leaf (@99mpg equivalent) is a small car equivalent roughly in size to the Fiat Panda Eco (@56.5 mpg). The Nissan Leaf energy spec will be at the battery @ 32kwhr and doesn't take into consideration the transmission and the battery loses with respect to the generation of the source electricity (Lithium Ion has 80% efficiency so you can easily knock 20-30 mpg of that 99mpg headline figure when taking these losses into account) so the differences aren't to great when everything is taken into consideration especially when you take into account the real world combined driving figure as a combination of motorway, urban and city driving.


Actually, that number does take into account charging losses. The 'at the battery' number is 24kwh. Also, the 99mpg figure is for combined driving (typical 55% city/45% highway). Pure city driving is at 106, while highway is at 92.

Quote:
The other problem is of course would be the peak loading issues for the electrical grid as everyone tops of their car batteries just before the rush hours.


The current charging systems are designed to charge over night (which takes advantage of off-peak electricity usage). When used in this manner, there is no need to charge right before rush hour.

Quote:
The other major problem of course is replacing millions of those cheap toxic $9000 Li-ion battery packs every 3-5 years or so in the rather small and very compact Nissan Leaf.


After 10 years the batteries are expected to maintain 70-80% of their charging capacity. However, it comes with an 8 year/100,000 mile battery warranty. The battery itself is also about 85% recyclable.

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#218529 - 03/07/11 12:58 AM Re: Fill your gas tanks, folks. [Re: Blast]
MarkO Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 137
Loc: Oregon
$3.47 at the station I go to. Metro Portland.

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#218533 - 03/07/11 02:47 AM Re: Fill your gas tanks, folks. [Re: Paul810]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3077
Quote:
Actually, that number does take into account charging losses. The 'at the battery' number is 24kwh. Also, the 99mpg figure is for combined driving (typical 55% city/45% highway). Pure city driving is at 106, while highway is at 92.


The Nissan leaf is certainly an impressive piece of design automotive engineering using cutting edge technology such as the longer life even more expensive Lithium Titanate Battery (compared to other cell technologies). The 56.5 mpg for the Fiat Panda Eco was also a combined fuel economy figure but the realities of these fuel efficiencies rarely are met. The Nissan Leaf is about as good as it gets for an electrically powered vehicle using cutting edge battery technology.

Even the Nissan Leaf is range limited to around 73 miles (EPA five-cycle tests) on a combined driving cycle and using a conventional power plug overnight drawing 1.4 KW setup will take many hours to recharge i.e. approx 22+hrs (not really a problem since the Leaf and will only get you around 1 hr 16 min use on a 55 mph highway drive anyway)

Compared this to the Panda which costs around 4 times less to purchase initially, which has a range of around 435 miles and can be refueled in around 5 minutes.

Quote:
The current charging systems are designed to charge over night (which takes advantage of off-peak electricity usage). When used in this manner, there is no need to charge right before rush hour.

When everyone is recharging their electric car it won't be off peak anymore. Even the fast charge for the Nissan Leaf is around 30 min using a 60KW (?) charging station (certainly not a current domestic arrangement), although to gain acceptance for general use (even if the range constraints can be lived with by the end user) this might become a requirement i.e. a seriously heavy duty copper wire circuit in every home. wink

Again at the end of the day if petroleum fuel is replaced by electrical power in the US for automotive use (with the same milage and luxury i.e. same car vehicle sizes and weights that today's driver expect today using gasoline powered cars. Some folks will want the Electric Rolls Royce and not the vehicle for the proletariat) then the equivalent number of nuclear power stations required to be built in the US would be in the hundreds if not the thousands if no oil (all other uses including vehicle transportation) was used within the US economy.

Then there would be the problem of Uranium fuel shortages unless fast breeder designs were constructed, which then leads to the problem of plutonium proliferation throughout the world.

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#218536 - 03/07/11 04:25 AM Re: Fill your gas tanks, folks. [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
LED Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1474
So I understand diesels pollute a bit more. But doesn't the fact that diesels get almost twice the mileage offset much of the difference?

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#218537 - 03/07/11 05:13 AM Re: Fill your gas tanks, folks. [Re: Blast]
comms Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
I can't pretend to understand all the math on the Leaf, but I understand time. I am not going to buy a car that takes 30 minutes or more to 'fill up' at a charging station or 8 hours at home for the privilege of driving between 60-90 miles per full charge. What am I supposed to do at these stations, read a book, watch a movie? Not mention have to wait for the person in front of me get done.
_________________________
Don't just survive. Thrive.

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#218539 - 03/07/11 11:33 AM Re: Fill your gas tanks, folks. [Re: Blast]
adam2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 389
Loc: Somerset UK
You could indeed watch a movie whilst charging an EV, if charging points were installed outside movie theatres, as has been proposed.
Or you could go shopping, if charging points were provided in the parking lots of stores.
Or if your employer provided the facility you could charge at work.
Here in London there are a number of public charging points for EVs, quite well used whilst people are shopping or visiting the theatre etc.

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#218542 - 03/07/11 12:34 PM Re: Fill your gas tanks, folks. [Re: adam2]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
That's just it. With a typical gasoline or diesel car, you have to go to a gas station to refill your car. You don't have any other options.

With an electric vehicle, the plan is to essentially have the gas station come to you. Charging stations in homes, in parking lots, in parking meters....with the right infrastructure most people would have no need to ever visit a gas station. There are also induction charging methods being developed that can charge the vehicle without a physical connection (just like those charging mats for phones, ipods, ect). Because of this, we aren't that far off from even being able to charge the car while it's driving.

As I've said, the technology and infrastructure isn't totally here as of 2011. We're in the infancy of it, just like we were with internal combustion engine cars back in 1911.

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#218543 - 03/07/11 12:34 PM Re: Fill your gas tanks, folks. [Re: adam2]
Russ Online   content
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4591
Loc: SOCAL
There's that infrastructure thingy raising its head again. . .

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