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#211160 - 11/11/10 12:30 AM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: paramedicpete]
Famdoc Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 04/29/09
Posts: 73
Loc: PA
During a visit to Bermuda some 20 years ago I recall being told that all houses (new construction?) had concrete water tanks in their basement which stored the rainwater collected by the also mandated terraced concrete roofs. The roofs were hurricane resistant as well; and the material in both "sweetened" any acid in the rain. The idea was make each home more or less water self-sufficient. Others who have been or live there might comment, or supply links to pictures/designs

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#211161 - 11/11/10 12:38 AM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: paramedicpete]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
RO plants are expensive to build, expensive to run, and subject to both regular, and unplanned, maintenance and overhaul. If the flush and de-mineralization cycles are not kept up, or if the intake sucks up oil, the membranes can be destroyed long before their expected life-cycle.

South Florida has played with RO plants. They even built a few small ones as proof-of-concept. The military has used small ones for years.

Every time water gets to be a major issue in south Florida two plans pop up. RO plants, and a pipeline to shift the "excess" fresh water from central and north Florida down south. Costs (Big $) and political pressures (What do you mean Miami has the right to drain central Florida lakes to keep their golf courses around Miami wet?) delay the issue until a hurricane comes along and kicks the can down the road a few years. Wash, rinse, repeat.

An interesting shift can sometimes to be seen in some people who have previously loudly objected to legal mandates for low-flow shower heads and low water use toilets. Their interests now clearly counter their previous highly principled views they now enthusiastically support what they had condemned. Sails are trimmed and most people, yours truly excepted, are too polite to take notice publicly.

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#211177 - 11/11/10 10:16 AM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: paramedicpete]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Forgot: water-from-atmosphere technology includes not only the electrical dehumidifier-type technology but also the passive non-electrical solar still technology.

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#211218 - 11/11/10 10:33 PM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: paramedicpete]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
The problem is that water-from-air, humidity extraction, is even less efficient energy-wise than RO.

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#211356 - 11/15/10 04:54 PM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: paramedicpete]
handle Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 18
If it's shtf, I will leave for the reservoir, where I have a dugout and cached goods. If it becomes a "normal times" issue, I will move elsewhere, dig a well, set up a desalinizer or condenser machine, etc. The world has 2x or more too many people already, and we are doubling that every 35 years. Nature is going to come up with a pandemic that knocks our species back by 99%, and soon, too. That's the way it always happens, with all species, when they overpopulate to the extent we have done. People just INSIST on having too many kids. Now, and for the forseeable future, 2 is too many.

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#211361 - 11/15/10 05:39 PM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: handle]
thseng Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 899
Loc: NW NJ
Handle, as father of seven children, when I read your post I say my family down to figure out which six we should get rid of.

Then we realize that if the world has twice as many people as it "should" have, we must all be in the half that does belong.

There was some debate as to which half you belong to, but I'd like you to know that at least I voted for you to stay. smile
_________________________
- Tom S.
Mora Knives & Adventurer Series Survival Gear

"Never trust and engineer who doesn't carry a pocketknife."

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#211377 - 11/16/10 12:49 AM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: paramedicpete]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2812
I think its going to be a bigger issue soon. My parents spring dries up half the year now, they had to have a well drilled and its not drinkable so they have to buy water half the year.
The small hand dug well up the mountain where I want to put our cabin has dried up as well, I don't know if I'll be able to have running water at all.

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#211397 - 11/16/10 05:18 AM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: Art_in_FL]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL
The problem is that water-from-air, humidity extraction, is even less efficient energy-wise than RO.


My narrow focus was a water source independent of public supply, or even access to water! You are quite right that you also need a power source to make the water-from-air technology work, and so you should also consider developing power independent of public supply .


Edited by dweste (11/16/10 05:22 AM)

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#211430 - 11/16/10 10:23 PM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: dweste]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
Originally Posted By: dweste

My narrow focus was a water source independent of public supply, or even access to water! You are quite right that you also need a power source to make the water-from-air technology work, and so you should also consider developing power independent of public supply .


It should be possible, but not necessarily efficient in terms of return on effort, to set up a solar-drive humidity extraction system.

A bank of solar cells might be used to drive a conventional refrigeration or Peltier-cell cooling but your going to lose efficiency at every transition between energy forms. I would lean toward a solar driven absorption cooling simply because it is a well understood technology that avoids several transitions.

Absorption systems can be entirely sealed and may be designed with no moving parts. There are absorption systems that are still kicking after a century of use. What they lack in refinement they more than make up with simplicity and endurance. Picture a multi-facet plate solar collector that runs any time there is sufficient solar energy to boil ammonia out of a water solution. As small system might average several ounces an hour for perhaps eight hours a day. A quart a day sounds doable for a small footprint and without complications that might boost output.

While this doesn't sound like much it would be delivered essentially 365 days a year, better than 90 gallons a year. Any water used could be fed back into the system by using simple evaporation trays to boost output, doubling or tripling output.

The good news is that such a system/s could produce water without adjustment or input for decades. Just set it up and let it do its thing. Such a system could be a survival reserve. Something you could set up at a remote cabin and let run to make sure you always have some water. The main supply would be through well or surface water and rainwater collection.

The bad news is that even a small system is going to run several thousand dollars. Hard to figure less than thousand if you don't get into mass production, even if you built it yourself.

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#211433 - 11/17/10 12:02 AM Re: Cities Running Out of Water [Re: Art_in_FL]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL
The bad news is that even a small system is going to run several thousand dollars. Hard to figure less than thousand if you don't get into mass production, even if you built it yourself.


Divided by say 50 years it doesn't seem prohibitive.

Edit: Aren't our existing refrigerators, freezers, dehumidifiers, and air conditioners already water-from-air machines? Can they do double duty and produce potable water with some cleanup or small alteration?


Edited by dweste (11/17/10 03:15 AM)

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