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#210305 - 10/25/10 10:31 PM Re: Preparing for Campus Shooting [Re: Bingley]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Surely there is a threat response program that has worked on scenarios much like the campus shooter. Maybe some with the appropriate militry, law enforcement, or security background will share that with us here. If not, we can perform our own thought experiments as well as internet research, and share those results here. So, though I am without any expertise in response to armed intruders, let me try a little.

Preparation is a major theme here. What could we prepare?

Our attitude, I think we know in emergencies we should not just give up and become victims. Even if shot, you can intend to survive.

Our habit of situational awareness: where are the traditional and non-traditional exit possibilities from the immediate room, building, campus, perhaps there is a waterway offering concealment and egress, etcetera?

Our habit of learning where there are resources: where is the campus security building, the campus nurse or hospital, the thickest plant life in which to hide, water sources, ?

What do we have in our EDC and otherwise that could help: cellphone to report and receive situation reports, request aid; a PFAK to help ourselves or others survive woounds; a mirror surface to signal authorities and to look carefully around corners and obstacles before further exposing ourselves; something to consume for energy; etcetera.

Okay, maybe all pretty basic and maybe even naive. But that is my start, please add to the sophistication if you can. I am going to do some internet searching.

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#210306 - 10/25/10 10:35 PM Re: Preparing for Campus Shooting [Re: ireckon]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1286
Originally Posted By: ireckon
For all the people who think it's dumb to discuss a response the scenario at issue, why aren't you comfortable with simply saying, "I'm not going to prepare because I don't need to prepare"? Alternatively, you don't have to participate.

This thread is for discussing a response to an active shooter in a building. That's the topic. The original poster didn't ask whether or not he should prepare. What's strange to me are folks who come here and spend lots of time and energy to debate vigorously why the topic is not worth discussing. One person even implied that most people here are fat suburbanites who need to be more concerned about a heart attack.

Geez, it's not that complicated. If you want to discuss the topic, then that's great. If you want to talk about something else, then start another thread or maybe even start your own Internet forum.


This is a response to Ireckon's original post above before it was obviously heavily edited.

Thread drift on a forum is like any conversation in real life. Coversation starts on one topic and slowly drifts back and forth to the original topic and several related or non related topics...thats life.

Instead of telling people to start new threads or their own forums, this forum has a "notify" link that will allow you to report any post that you think does not belong. I would rather see the admins here decide what is appropriate and what is not..

Also I did not see any insinuation of "fat suburbanites" in any post.


Anyways back to the original topic...
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#210308 - 10/25/10 10:40 PM Re: Preparing for Campus Shooting [Re: Teslinhiker]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1613
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: Teslinhiker
...I did not see any insinuation of "fat suburbanites" in any post...


Here you go:

Originally Posted By: gulliamo
I just become curious when I hear about people from suburban America spending lots of money/time preparing for muggings/break-ins while generally ignoring their obesity/smoking/etc when they rarely even know someone who has every been assaulted.


Gun-related threads always go off topic. I thought it would be different this time. I was wrong.

Originally Posted By: Teslinhiker
Instead of telling people to start new threads or their own forums, this forum has a "notify" link that will allow you to report any post that you think does not belong. I would rather see the admins here decide what is appropriate and what is not.


Then maybe you should take your own advice.
_________________________
If you're reading this, it's too late.

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#210310 - 10/25/10 10:50 PM Re: Preparing for Campus Shooting [Re: Bingley]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Here's some stuff:

3.“Those willing to take the shooter down should rush the shooter and keep coming until he is down. Push people down or out of the way, even run over children while shouting commands, “Get down, do not run, get on the floor!”

4. Those who choose to fight should focus on the weapon not the person. Control the weapon. After the active shooter has been subdued, march everyone out to a safe place in the manner described above. Someone needs to call for medical assistance at this point. [Edit: I would call at first detection of a shooter!]

5. When LEOs arrive all weapons should already be put away if possible. Make sure not to pick up the shooter’s weapon but keep your foot on it or secure it if there is a chance someone may pick it up. Do what the police tell you to do. Identify the wrongdoer to the police and make sure the police know that he had to be stopped in order to prevent innocent people from becoming victims. Point out evidence such as spent casings, weapons, etc. but do not provide details without a lawyer present.

http://firearmslawyer.net/blog/index.php/all/2009/01/09/p185


University STAY response advisory:

Secure your area, lock or barricade doors and windows, close blinds, prevent anyone/ anything from accessing occupants.

Take cover, hide, stay out of sight.

Advise others so that they can take steps to protect themselves; await further information.

You must take measures to protect your safety. Police will be busy with the actual response to the incident and will not be able to direct your personal actions unless you are actively involved.

https://www6.miami.edu/public-safety/Eme...ASE-2-15-10.pdf

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#210312 - 10/25/10 11:02 PM Re: Preparing for Campus Shooting [Re: dweste]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1286
Originally Posted By: dweste
Here's some stuff:

University STAY response advisory:

Secure your area, lock or barricade doors and windows, close blinds, prevent anyone/ anything from accessing occupants.


It's been awhile since I last visited a university or school. Do classrooms nowadays have locks that can be locked from the inside?
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#210313 - 10/25/10 11:31 PM Re: Preparing for Campus Shooting [Re: Bingley]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1613
Loc: Northern California
Appalachian School of Law, unarmed students subdued a shooter by using brute force. Apparently, the students may have been unaware of the presence of armed policemen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

Regarding the frequency of school shootings, I have noticed that since Virginia Tech the frequency of school shootings has gone up noticeably. There may or may not be a correlation. There have been 35 American schools that had shootings between 2007 and today 10/25/10 (less than 4 years). In comparison, from 1966 to the end of 1983 (18 years), there were 9 American schools.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

Those stats do not include other shootings outside of American schools. Also, I'm about certain those stats don't include gang-related shootings at schools.
_________________________
If you're reading this, it's too late.

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#210320 - 10/26/10 02:38 AM Re: Preparing for Campus Shooting [Re: Bingley]
gulliamo Offline
Member

Registered: 09/11/02
Posts: 155
Loc: NYC, USA
All:
My intent was not to start an argument - I like this forum and respect too many people here for that. I was only trying to establish a sense of perspective. I wouldn't suggest someone be disallowed to post their opinion (provided they are within the bounds of the forum rules) and I'm surprised to hear people suggest I suppress mine.

That said, I am always willing to be swayed by new evidence and it seems the problem may be bigger than I anticipated (Thanks irecon for the link!) but it's been a while since I was on campus.

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#210324 - 10/26/10 04:37 AM Re: Preparing for Campus Shooting [Re: Bingley]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1251
For some, campus shooting is a greater concern because they might be spending their lives working in a school system. In other words, the risk is not just four years of college, but forty years. College students, even at respectable institutions, are also becoming increasingly confrontational and unbalanced. Some don't hesitate sending emails that begin with "f*** y**" and end with something similar, often a vague, cowardly threat. Fortunately, strange emails where students with a loose screw declare themselves to be your god are a bit more common ("I am Infinity! Bow down and worship me!"). In a bizarre turn, some gang members are also pursuing higher education. Someone who teaches crime prevention and self-defense workshops at a small, low-ranking college was shocked to find some members of national criminal syndicates in his classes, presumably to learn what the victims learn. (That's near you, Mr. Gulliamo.) So the threat today is greater than what you judge by -- your own experience as relatively well-behaved students.

Usually only really sensational news like the Virginia Tech mass shooting grabs national attention, but those in higher education notice the smaller violent incidents (sometimes directed just at an individual or a department). It seems there has been at least one or two incidents every year for the last four or five years. It just takes a disturbed or depraved individual with poor judgment. Now, which of the students who send you those strange emails will turn out to be him? Will he target just you or random strangers? Though not really the same, tese concerns lie on the same spectrum for school workers -- I do realize we're mainly talking about the Virginia Tech scenario in this thread.

In this sort of climate, it is quite frustrating that there is no good way to arm oneself effectively against the crazies. I am just not interested in being helpless and trusting to chance. But even if local law allows carrying firearms, in my opinion it is inadvisable to risk expulsion or termination of employment. To get readmitted or to get your job back, you'd need to get into a legal battle, and universities, being basically large corporations, can keep throwing money at the case until they bankrupt you. Some people like their school or their job, and the risk of getting killed by a campus shooter is actually fairly low, as some posts on this thread have pointed out. So the risk of getting fired/expelled seems to outweigh the risk of getting killed.

After all this discussion, it really seems that situational awareness is the best defense. Subscribing to campus text message alerts and noticing potential "escape routes" are good ideas. These can be done without too much cost. (As for room design, building egress, door locks, etc. -- they vary from campus to campus, and even from building to building. Generally, though, doors can't be locked except by a key. Some rooms have two or more exits, others have one. Some windows are big enough to let a man through, others aren't. Some rooms are on the ground floor, others are on the 20th floor that you would not want to jump out of. It's all case by case.) Equipment that cannot be easily concealed can lead to misunderstandings with the colleagues or administrators. So body armor is probably out. Depending on the state & the campus, a small projectile taser might work, but there is again the problem of range. I invite those with better ideas to contribute.

Thanks you very much for all your input. One final thought -- I wasn't expecting to cause such controversy about what sort of preparation is worth discussing. Can't we all face the fact that the main reason we're on this forum is mostly because (1) we like gadgets and (2) we are prone to be overly vigilant?

Stay cool.


Da Bing

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#210331 - 10/26/10 11:32 AM Re: Preparing for Campus Shooting [Re: Bingley]
LesSnyder Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1403
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
Teslinhiker...I taught in a public high school, west coast of Florida... the building I worked at was built in 1972 and remodeled several times...the exterior building doors were metal framed but primarily glass reinforced with wire for OHSA vision requirements... interior hallway doors were a mix of steel but mostly solid wood with metal frames that were lockable from the inside but keyed for a master key...they had 8x24 glass panels for safety while opening...interior doors were solid wood,lockable, typically without any vision window..

one of the modifications to the emergency management plan we made after Columbine was to have a remote but secure key safe for responding law enforcement..sets of master keys... laminated floor plans...phone directory by classroom numbers... and video (DVD) made from the 7 primary access points so back up officers had an idea of the building layout ...copies were at the police/fire/and sheriff's office

our school nurses had several prepositioned trauma kits in various parts of the building

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#210335 - 10/26/10 12:23 PM Re: Preparing for Campus Shooting [Re: Bingley]
LesSnyder Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1403
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
BTW.... my worst case scenario was not an active shooter, but a disinfranchised student that might set off a thermobaric device in the hallway below my classroom

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