AR-15 in .223 with 22LR conversion.

Good idea? Bad idea?

Thoughts?

Experience?

Thanks.

Given the price differential between 5.56mm and .22LR you could save a bit if you practice a lot.

There is also some advantage in noise. Even in rural areas where it is both legal and safe to practice the crack of a 5.56mm can cause concern and annoy neighbors. Using .22LR rounds, particularly if you stick to sub-sonic varieties, would lower your profile and make the difference between happy neighbors and a nagging feud.

On the other hand such conversions are not cheap and there are good quality dedicated .22LR rifles out there at similar prices as a conversion device. A separate .22LR weapon also saves wear and tear on the AR.

A possible advantage would be the savings in weight and bulk if you are in a situation where there are tight limits on what you can carry.

The police department where I live recently ordered conversion kits for all their AR-15s. By going to the conversion, the officers will be able to get a massive amount of trigger time for a fraction of the cost due to the price difference in ammunition.

CheaperThanDirt.com (standard disclaimer, I have no affiliation) shows .223 Remington for 81 cents a round, while .22 LR is 7.2 cents a round. So, you can shoot 10 rounds for the price of one.

I've not talked to any officers who've fire them, but they were excited about the prospect of being able to shoot hundreds and hundreds of rounds at the range. I'll check with a couple guys tomorrow to find out their thoughts after shooting with the conversion kits.

Why not just buy a separate .22? It will surely cost you less than an AR conversion kit. Unless you have some need to have your existing AR do multiple calibers, I don't see any reason to saddle yourself with only one rifle and the time it takes to do conversions. Two separate rifles would be easier and more practical IMHO.

I don't like conversions. I would just buy a separate .22lr. A conversion can be about the same in cost as a separate .22lr rifle. Also, you can treat the other gun like it's not your AR-15. In other words, you don't have to baby it. Likewise, you don't have to freak out if a friend is not treating the .22lr rifle with the best of care.

Plus, I view an AR-15 as being a self-defense tool. I don't like mucking around with my self-defense tools. I keep it simple. My self-defense tools are ready to perform their duty whenever they're not being cleaned. There's never any thinking about whether they're in the appropriate condition for their intended task.

I have a drop in CMMG .22lr conversion kit in a 16inch carbine (my backup). It works well for its intended use.... I use it for muscle memory transition work(left right side barricade transitiions, awkward shooting positions at relatively short distances 35yds or less. It is not very accurate (3-4 inches at 50m)in my Colt flat top due to difference in bore to bullet diameter. My STC 10/22 will shoot 1inch at 100y. I used it for about 500rds before Ft Benning last year, and the interior was really dirty. Then I realized that I didn't really need to tap the gas as the unit is straight blow back, so I removed the gas block and tube, and covered the hole with a stainless screw clamp. Will be using it again this year as we ramp up as Dec gets nearer. I really stress the visualization part of practice, but rely on live fire practice on steel reactive targets for immediate feed back. regards Les

AR supposedly field converts easily in under 30 seconds.

Accuracy said to be highly dependent on quality of ammunition, with some experimentation expected.

Conversion sub-$100.

Field conversion might allow "two rifles" for pretty much the weight and bulk of one.

Looks like we all forgot to ask you WHAT you're going to be using it for. Do you already have the AR and are looking to possibly add a conversion, or do you need to buy everything from scratch?

I have no personal experience with a conversion kit. I have heard accuracy can suffer. You can get a deidcated AR based .22 for not too much money. I think one of the other boards I participate on had this question come up, I'll see if I can find it.

I have heard mixed reviews on conversion kits. Some, the mag well will not work properly, depending on the manufacturer of the lower. Other complaints I have heard was the it never cycled correctly. I cannot speak to any of these, as they were all second hand info to me. But, it was enough to turn me off of getting a conversion kit.
I have considered a dedicated .22 upper, but I think ultimately I will simply go with a .22 rifle altogether. The difference, for me, is roughly $100-so, its sort of a no brainer for me.

I would suggest either a dedicated upper (again, check that the mags will work too), or a separate rifle. I have heard too many bad things about conversion kits, and I would want to ruin my AR with a bad choice.

Starting from scratch. Will be working with a very experienced gunsmith to be sure everything matches and works smoothly.

For use in mixed opportunity environments: rabbit, squirrel turkey, pig, deer.

Another take on survival firearms:

http://www.usrsog.org/surfire.htm

Think that the forum that has more information that you ever wanted to know is ar15.com. Don't know which one of the conversions works the best, would recommend doing a little research. There are are also different vendors and not all are honorable places to deal with.

It is good to know that you are going to have a gunsmith "tune" the conversion they are supposed to work with most but slight manufacturing differences in the bolt assemblies and the many AR variants can make the conversions problematic at times. Accuracy is not real good, don't know if it would be good enough to hunt with or not. You can also buy a new upper with a 22 barrel that seems to offer a much higher degree of accuracy but also adds quite a bit to the cost. Think a built 10-22 might be cheaper and be very accurate.

Should mention that a couple of years ago i worked at a machine shop that fabricated the conversions for one of the AR-15 specialty shops. Did like our quality control testing for the conversions that we made. The owner of the AR-15 shop is a class 3 dealer and he would bring in his personal silenced M-16 and we would go out behind the shop and run a few magazines through it just to make sure everything worked as it was supposed to. And most of the time the conversions would run full auto without any problems.

The hope is a one rifle, two calibre solution for hunting. Not a target rifle; probably never try any 22 shots further than 30 yards.

.22lr conversions in .223/5.56mm barrels is not accurate enough for hunting, in most cases. I assume that you mean small game like rabbits and squirrels. The .22lr bullet is a true .22 inch diameter. AR bullets are .224 in diameter. barrels for the AR are wider than for .22lr, thus .22lr bullets do not "grip" very well in the larger barrel. Rifling twist rates are also much faster in the AR barrels and the .22lr bullets don't stabilize well. Results are lost velocity, erratic accuracy (12" groups at 50 yards in some cases), heavier leading in your barrel, etc. That being said, inside 30 to 20 yards, you may be close enough that the above doesn't matter that much and you can still get your squirrel. This is where your stalking and other hunting skill come in.

The .22lr kits really shine for cheaper training options. If you want to hunt, but maintain your AR system, I recommend a dedicated .22lr upper that aleviates most of the above problems.

Friend suggests that .223 tumbles on impact by design making them meat destroyers and unsuited to hunting. Others claim that only happens with old military surplus stuff and is banned by the Geneva Convention so no such tumbling occurs.

Maybe a different AR calibre, like 7.56? More research!

Wonder what a 22LR upper and receiver for AR-15 cost? Could still share optic and perhaps other accessory costs. More research.

You could purchase a decent O/U Savage Mod.24,though they are single shot,& quite heavy,but in various combo calibers,including .223/.22 L.R. The mod.24's are not made anymore,& haven't been for more than 30yrs.New England Arms are the Newest choice here,they make O/U singles in just about every caliber out there,much lighter due to synthetic stocks/furniture,modern mfg. technique.The Ruger 10-22 is what I've used for squirrel hunting most of the time,& A Sears-Roebucks single shot in .22 gallery shorts in my post-toddler yrs. The .223 conversion to .22 LR is NOT practical,at the very least,The Ar-15 bore is designed for the .223 round which is 2 times longer in length than a .22 LR round,& are usually bored with a 1-9"twist,thats 1 complete revolution per 9" which will put a very tight spin on the much longer .223 giving it a Very flat Trajectory,well past 100yds.with Ball ammo.Don't waste your Money on the conversion!

This is becoming a complex discussion. Apparently AR-15's vary in barrel twist [1 in 7, 1 in 9, 1 in 12, and 1 in 16 at least], performance with different grades of .223 or 22LR ammunitiion [more expensive genreally more accurate], and on and on.

Various internet sources and forum contributors differ on whether .223 shot from AR-15s tumble and so damage larger parts of what the slug hits. Ditto with the effectiveness of the AR-15 .223 as a one shot, one kill deer rifle.

At the moment in my researches, it seems all concur that the accuracy of 22LR fired through and AR-15 .223 barrel is not great and probably not appropriate for hunting at any distance.

More research!

Turns out my little brother, the police chief, has been sand bagging during my talks with him about .223 AR-15s. You guessed it, that is the department issue long gun. According to the ex-marine officer I spoke to this morning the round is a penetrator and does not by design tumble in flight or on impact. My brother the chief added that if it did the suits against the department would make national news.

So the research continues.

From looking at several thousand targets shot by M16s, the vast majority of holes in them are round. A tumbling round leaves a larger oval hole. It's really obvious when an M16 round has hit something to cause it to tumble before striking a target.

Once the round strikes something it may tend to tumble, as do most hot small caliber rifle rounds, but not always.

Personally, I own a .223 and a .22. I use the .22 for plinking, general tuning up my marksmanship, and general usage, as it's freaking cheap to shoot a .22.

dweste...I paid about $180 for the drop in conversion and magazine and another $25 for an additional magazine...I don't know your background with shooting sports, but I compete in a sport called 3 gun.. go to YouTube... Ft Benning 3 gun 2009 stage VII, and look at the video with Mike Darby, Kurt Miller et al...then go to Viking Tactics by Kyle Lamb and look at the video called "Highsmith Rifle Drill" and "9 hole rifle drill" and "three little kittens" the practice to accomplish and maintain these skills can be pricey at $.25 a shot... hence the .22lr conversion

you can purchase a second hand Ruger 10/22 for less than what the conversion will cost you and end up with a much more accurate rifle

If you want to continue your research on the .223/5.56 look at the recent ballistic gel tests (FBI) used to approximate animal tissue... when the velocity of the bullet is above about 2700feet per second, (depending on bullet weight) at 200m or less, the bullet will yaw 90 degrees and break apart the the cannelure (the groove on the bullet the case is crimped into ),and the resulting fragments will shred the temporary stretch cavity caused by the hydrostatic shock of the projectile impact producing a devastating wound....at velocities less than this the projectile will rotate 180 degrees, and leave base first (naturally depending on thickness of tissue and whether it strikes any bone... larger diameter bullets shot in non magnum .308 guns typically don't reach this velocity to yaw, drilling a caliber diameter hole, so hunting projectiles typically have a "hollow cavity" which allows them to mushroom to increase the the permanent stretch cavity producing a more humane kill. AS far a bullet yaw, a 3000fps bullet fired from a 1/9inch twist rate rifle is going 240,000rpm..(if my math is correct) and anything can cause it to deflect... regards Les

Great stuff, guys! Les, I will check all that out.

It has been more than 30 years since I was active in shooting sports or owned a firearm. I am working on becoming an informed consumer.

The idea of one gun plus a drop-in conversion offering an accurate centerfire .223 combined with a reasonably-accurate-at-short-distance and cheap-to-practice rimfire .22LR is intriguing. It may offer the potential of matching my likely opportunistic hunting style without burdening me with two guns.

The AR-15 platform seems also to offer modularity and upgrade paths for future experimentation.

More research!

dweste... the AR platform "black rifle" is the small block Chevy of the firearms industry...tremendous amount of stuff available to add on...you need a good trigger, and good sights (at my age optics)look up the shooting sports offering practical rifle or 3 gun in your area...check it out and ask questions...if you look at the videos I mentiioned you can wade through the "mall nija/gunstore commando" junk and see what world class shooters use... regards Les

Les, thanks again, videos awesome - an extremely high level of competence displayed! I am not sure I aspire to that level, but instructive to see the experts do their stuff.

I am searching for a solid AR-15 civilian training course in Central or Northern California for the basics of maintenance, shooting, and field operation. If need be I have found manuals, books, videos in various on- and off-line formats, etcetera. And I do have my brother and a friend who are familar with the platform somewhat.

I, too, will require optics and all the help I can get!

dweste...If you go the video route, I would highly recommend the Viking Tactics video. Kyle is arguably the most sought after carbine trainer in the country now. Somewhere down the road get a copy of his book "Green Eyes and Black Rifles" regards Les

dweste, I am not sure why you are researching AR15s in California.

You missed that bus years ago.

Unless registered (that time has passed, BTW) , AR15s are essentially illegal in CA.

Have a look at calguns.net for more details on California law.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Good quality bolt-action .22 LR rifles are commonly available new for a good bit less than $100. Last I looked a Stevens was going for about $80 new at Wally. These units may not be match grade but are perfectly acceptable for light game shooting.

Nothing wrong with the 10-22, they have a lot of accessories available too.
You're doing the right thing by asking questions and getting well informed.
I'm looking into a training course that others have taken. I hope I can make it this time. Get as much training you can get & practice.

FYI AR-15 in 22LR, like all 22s, are generally exempt from the CA ban, provided 10 round mags.

However, I am now leaning away from AR-15s because of the purchase price and toward the Ruger 10/22. I may even abandon the new gun idea and get into used firearms so that I can afford to fully accessorize, etc.

That is good to hear that you can have .22 ARs. They are fun. Thanks for the clarification.

That said, the 10/22 is a great platform as well. I prefer the used ones because the trigger pack is metal, not the plastic in the newer ones.

That is a myth. ALL bullets alter trajectory when impacting media. The weight of the bullet causes easier fragmentation, as it simply isnt as dense as a 7.62 round. "Observed tumbling" is something people will occasionally see, when shooting paper-the bullet passed through it sideways, in what is called "keyholing". This is the result of the shooter having a poor grip, and anticipating recoil-in essence, you are putting a slight flid on the bullet when it leaves the muzzle, causing it to keyhole.
As to the tumbling bullet theory, I think that this was one of the "plastic gun" myths originating when Stoner introduced the platform. Most of the trouble issues with the M16 platform were found, and dealt with, within the first few years of production. Or the result of negligence on the shooters part. Having shot them in one style or another over the course of 20 years, I have never had one blow up, or get so fouled as to not work. Sure, I have had jams-show me a rifle that doesnt jam!. But, I can honestly say, a well built AR platform will provide years of service, with minimal effort required on your part.
FYI, there were recent studies done on how the military cleans their rifles, and premature replacement of parts. Anyone who has served, I am sure has expereinced the HOURS of cleaning the higher ups require. Armorers often would not take a rifle with ANY carbon on it at all. This is actually quite detrimental to the rifle. Wiping down the bolt carrier group, the chamber, and rodding the barrel, is all thats needed. 10 minutes, no more. A little carbon is fine-it doesnt cause jamming issues. Oh, and, of course, a little oil.

You have been misinformed on the legalities of AR-15. They are legal (not just the .22 version), and in fact quite a few stores have them on display and for sale.


Dweste,

I think you're making a good choice by going with a dedicated .22 instead of a conversion. I never really saw an advantage of taking a $1000+ rifle and adding a bunch of accessories, to end up with the functionality of a 10/22