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#194837 - 02/01/10 07:31 PM Re: Herbal Medicines and Home Remedies [Re: Arney]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3561
Loc: Spring, Texas
Originally Posted By: Arney
When H1N1 was frequently on my mind last fall, my reading turned up elderberries as a tool against influenza, at least seasonal influenza, but I don't see why it wouldn't have some effect with H1N1.


Arney, current research on elderberry extract definitely shows it helps the immune system fight off viral infections such as the flu. It's a multi-mode system, one part of which is to stimulate the cytokine production. Unfortunately, this is also the effect of swine flu, namely triggering a cytokine storm which can be even more devestating/fatal to the infected person. Cytokine storms were one of things which made the original Spanish flu to deadly, especially for young, healthy people.

The scientific community has not formally studied this issue, but after looking at the assorted data that has been done I personally would not take an elderberry extract if I thought I might have swine flu, and this is from a guy who still drinks from BPA-containing nalgene bottles.

-Blast

Ref. 1: Elderberry Flu Protection
Ref. 2: Cytokine Storms
Ref. 3: Elderberry Cytokine Storm?
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#194862 - 02/01/10 10:39 PM Re: Herbal Medicines and Home Remedies [Re: Blast]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Blast
The scientific community has not formally studied this issue, but after looking at the assorted data that has been done I personally would not take an elderberry extract if I thought I might have swine flu

I looked into the cytokine storm angle with H1N1, too, but there's little to go on since it's a brand new strain. There are two main questions actually that you have to ask yourself--does H1N1 kill most people through a cytokine storm, and does elderberry trigger or exacerbate a cytokine storm in people with H1N1? You'll read opinions and theories on both sides. Some say that elderberry actually has a immuno-modulatory effect. While immune boosting in general, if your immune system does go into overdrive and towards a cytokine storm, it'll help rein it in.

There are also lot's of different reports about how H1N1 kills. Some reports say primary viral pneumonias, some are secondary bacterial pneumonias, cytokine storm, etc. It's kind of all over the map. If it doesn't usually kill through cytokine storm, then worrying about triggering one isn't so relevant.

But, the doubt about it was actually why I was trying the ascorbic acid before elderberry. But the ascorbic acid seemed to work well for me so I never got to the point of trying the elderberry. I don't really see any risk of trying elderberry with the regular run of the mill influenza, though.

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#194925 - 02/02/10 04:19 AM Re: Herbal Medicines and Home Remedies [Re: Arney]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
I'll see your elderberry and raise you some quinine. Make mine a gin and tonic. A few drops of bitters, for the vitamins of course, would be a nice addition.

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#195310 - 02/07/10 11:04 PM Re: Herbal Medicines and Home Remedies [Re: Mark_F]
CJK Offline
Addict

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 541
Loc: FL, USA
Not a remedy but prevention. My wife and I swear by the nasal rinses....usual disclaimer...just owners not affiliated....Neil med sinus rinse. has prevented countless sinus infections.....part of our supplies...long term and disaster.

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#195329 - 02/08/10 04:09 AM Re: Herbal Medicines and Home Remedies [Re: CJK]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
The two herbal treatments that immediately come to mind are oil of cloves to temporarily treat the pain of a bad tooth and peppermint tea to sooth an upset stomach. They aren't going to replace real medicine but they are pretty safe and fairly effective for mild cases.

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#195476 - 02/10/10 01:36 AM Re: Herbal Medicines and Home Remedies [Re: MostlyHarmless]
Mark_F Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 714
Loc: Kentucky
Playing a little catch-up.

MH, I meant Blast cheated by posting a link instead of posting his own remedies. It was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek but I guess it didn't come across that way.

Interesting stuff about elderberries. The chemistry is beyond me but the info is good to have.

CJK, DW and SIL swear by the nettie-pot. Like a radiator flush kit for the sinuses. Makes my hands feel slimy just typing about it.

Nice ones Art. Of course we are not trying to replace "real" medicine, but just considering what we would all do if modern medicine, for whatever reason, was unavailable. These could also be used in a survival situation if you get really skilled at identifying plants. I would really be interested in anything that would help a diabetic. No insulin = bad news for me. The stuff doesn't store forever and it is rather impractical to store large quantities anyway. An herbal remedy that would make a modest supply stretch a bit further would be of particular interest to me. Thanks everyone. Keep the ideas coming.
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#195490 - 02/10/10 06:21 AM Re: Herbal Medicines and Home Remedies [Re: Mark_F]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
Originally Posted By: Mark_Frantom
I would really be interested in anything that would help a diabetic. No insulin = bad news for me. The stuff doesn't store forever and it is rather impractical to store large quantities anyway. An herbal remedy that would make a modest supply stretch a bit further would be of particular interest to me. Thanks everyone. Keep the ideas coming.


Some diabetics can maintain their blood sugar through diet and exercise. Given a lack of other options a brutal exercise regimen and near starvation diet has saved some. Of course insulin is the only option for some. I know of no replacement, or even partial substitute, for insulin. Herbal or otherwise.

But the situation isn't without hope with some preparation, planning, and luck.

Quote:

From: http://www.isletsofhope.com/diabetes/care/tips_insulin_chart_1.html

When properly refrigerated (do not freeze) insulin will keep until expiration date on package. If ever frozen, discard the insulin.
Insulin expiration dates are usually 1-2 years form date of purchase.


They say one to two years from date of purchase but I suspect it is from the date of manufacture. Either way it seems to me that if you can get it fresh, within say 6 months of manufacture, to give you time to acquire the insulin, you would still have 18 months to work with.

The storage temperature range isn't too bad: Refrigerated. 36-46F. Even the refrigerated temperature is within what could be maintained with a simple absorption unit that runs on kerosene/propane/electricity. So called "ice balls", simple closed cycle absorption units renown for their longevity and toughness, are favorites for storing insulin and vaccines in the tropics. Something to look into.

At room temperature: 59-86F, your looking at 28 days. One recommendation for maintaining that range in warmer temperatures is a simple expedient of evaporative cooling using a earthenware container filled with water.

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#195765 - 02/12/10 04:49 PM Re: Herbal Medicines and Home Remedies [Re: Art_in_FL]
Mark_F Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 714
Loc: Kentucky
Art, totally insulin dependant, type I juvenile onset. Going on 32 years. It does complicate the preparedness scenarios like you wouldn't believe. Many years ago a young child who was diabetic was lost in the wild. When they found him he was alive, curled up in a fetal position beside a river. Presumably his blood sugar was out of this world and he simply stayed put by the water source.
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#195798 - 02/13/10 12:58 AM Re: Herbal Medicines and Home Remedies [Re: Mark_F]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
Originally Posted By: Mark_Frantom
Many years ago a young child who was diabetic was lost in the wild. When they found him he was alive, curled up in a fetal position beside a river. Presumably his blood sugar was out of this world and he simply stayed put by the water source.


I would suspect, assuming he had nothing to eat, that his blood sugar would be quite low. Ironically, and possibly the salvation of diabetics caught in a survival situation, near starvation, a brutally restricted diet, was the original method dealing with diabetes before insulin was isolated. Even without testing of blood sugar it is sometimes possible to roughly manage blood sugar minute by minute by diet alone. Using many tiny low-calorie meals and watching the response. I doubt anyone could do it alone, the trip would be a constant ride between near coma and drunken abandon brought on my low sugar, royals had 24/7 caretakers, but it shouldn't be impossible to sustain life.

The general trend managing diabetes long term through diet is gradual weight loss, slow weakening and death. Type one, early onset, diabetics tended to die young even when they got intensive nurturing and healthcare that was only available to royalty.

Type one diabetes, along with hemophilia, was one of the royal diseases. Poor diabetics died out too quickly before insulin was isolated for the trait to be transmitted.

The good news is that at room temperature insulin is usually good for 28 days and the major disaster relief organizations have made insulin and diabetes a major subset of their efforts. The 28 days gets you through the initial emergency, secondary crisis and into long-term management and recovery.

Your right that insulin dependent diabetes is a major issue that will color every movement and action. But the insulin itself, and those 28 days, allows planning and sound preparation to carry the day and means the situation isn't hopeless. Even in the middle of a major disaster.

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#196161 - 02/19/10 03:30 PM Re: Herbal Medicines and Home Remedies [Re: Art_in_FL]
Mark_F Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 714
Loc: Kentucky
Art, surprisingly, type 1 insulin dependent, blood sugars rise even without much food intake. The body uses the insulin to convert sugars in the blood into energy the body's cells can use. Without the insulin no sugar is converted so any at all in the blood stays there. When blood sugars get too high the sugar starts spilling into the urine (not literally, it's an old phrase they used to use and the one part of the process I am not certain how it really happens. I assume it is the excess levels of blood sugars being filtered out by the kidneys but thats just a theory). Couple that with the literal cannibalizing of the bodies other cells (no sugar being convrted to energy so the cells start feeding on neighboring fat tissue) and you have real problems. When I was diagnosed I was nearly in a coma and rushed straight to the hospital. What a present for my ninth birthday. Fortunately I remember very little of those days now.

In an emergency, if insulin is available, lower intake of food means less insulin is required anyway so it would last a little longer just on those merits. Of course it only delays the inevitable. Perhaps it will be long enough to finish DSs education and teach DW to be more self-sufficient. One can only hope.
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