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#195051 - 02/03/10 08:42 PM Re: Backpacking light--deodorant over knife & fire? [Re: Jared]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3556
Loc: Spring, Texas
Dibs on his...deodorant?
Nevermind.

-Blast
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#195056 - 02/03/10 10:40 PM Re: Backpacking light--deodorant over knife & fire? [Re: Blast]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
Whenever I hear/read about the ULers, I think about hiker Colin Fletcher telling about the ones who trim the borders off their maps to save weight.

Some people are Darwin Award material all their lives.

Sue

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#195058 - 02/03/10 11:02 PM Re: Backpacking light--deodorant over knife & fire [Re: tomfaranda]
PureSurvival Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/09
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
This thread really does expose peopleís ignorance. Tough but true.

Some of these UL hikers are professionals; they earn their living from it. And, most of them carry more kit than adventure racers. Most UL hikers have many hundreds if not thousands of miles of trail experience. They know their kit inside out and they have bags and bags of experience, much more than most people on here.

Most people that hang around survival based forums, if they ever go out any further from their local woods or an occasional night out often carry way to much kit and survival kit. This is often seen by some of the radicalise FAKís that some people have.

We can learn a lot from these guys. They have mastered minimalist existents often with long periods of solitude. They have also learnt to deal with the minimum of comfort. And, they have the drive to push themselves to achieve their goal. All qualities someone in a survival situation needs.

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#195060 - 02/03/10 11:17 PM Re: Backpacking light--deodorant over knife & fire [Re: PureSurvival]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1903
Loc: Washington, DC

Here I thought my teardrop trailer was ultra-light.


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#195061 - 02/03/10 11:22 PM Re: Backpacking light--deodorant over knife & fire [Re: Dagny]
PureSurvival Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/09
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
lol

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#195062 - 02/03/10 11:41 PM Re: Backpacking light--deodorant over knife & fire? [Re: Jared]
MarshAviator Offline
Marsh Aviator
Journeyman

Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 70
Loc: Baton Rouge, LA, USA
Quote:
Most people that hang around survival based forums, if they ever go out any further from their local woods or an occasional night out often carry way to much kit and survival kit. This is often seen by some of the radicalise FAKís that some people have.


Some people on the forum are backpackers some are not.
A BOB is not a backpack.

The goals are different.

Apart from maximum carry weight issues a BOB can't have too much in it.

I understand the UL mentality, and it has purpose, but not for everyone. Then again, cave men carried very very little and survived or we wouldn't be here.

The real question is one of probabilities as a FAK is only needed if there is a need for First Aid.

Risk = chance of something happening X the consequences.

The UL crowd is operating on the chance side of the equation.

The real world has both sides.

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#195063 - 02/04/10 12:01 AM Re: Backpacking light--deodorant over knife & fire [Re: PureSurvival]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 5871
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: PureSurvival
Some of these UL hikers are professionals; they earn their living from it."... "Most UL hikers have many hundreds if not thousands of miles of trail experience."

"Most people that hang around survival based forums, if they ever go out any further from their local woods or an occasional night out often carry way to much kit and survival kit. This is often seen by some of the radicalise FAKís (what pray tell is a radicalise FAK? More importantly, where can I get one? Are they expensive?) that some people have.


And some internet posters are prone to wild generalizations...

I suppose you might consider Ray Jardine a "professional" UL hiker - he is the only one that comes to mind. Jardine has written some influential books, although I suspect that most of his money comes from his invention of Friends, the first practicable camming devices for rock climbing. I looked up his gear list in one of his books. He has a first aid kit, flashlight with a spare battery and bulb (book was written pre-LEDs), stove with fuel, pocket knife (SAK Classic), emergency fire starter, and even a camera - no deodorant, though.

He advocates traveling at a moderate pace over a long day; descending to sheltered locations in the face of bad weather (definitely a viable strategy in mountainous country). His book is thoughtful, and stimulating, with some very good pointers for anyone interested in the outdoors.

Jardine has sparked the current UL wave , a variety of techniques also fostered by the development of strong light textiles like silnylon and spinnaker cloth.

UL hiking has a long and honorable history. In the 1950s, Gerry Cunningham sold gear that allowed five day, 35 pound trips. Even earlier than that, British mountaineers Eric Shipton and H W Tilman fostered lightweight expeditions without guides and porters, a practice that has continued into modern "alpine" strategies for climbing, as opposed to the "expedition" approach. UL has been around a long time.

The challenge, and joy, of outdoors travel, whether it is backpacking on a trail, an alpine excursion, perfecting a SAR pack, or even a good sea kayaking trip, is achieving the elegance of getting it just right - using everything you brought, bringing nothing unnecessary, and achieving your goals with an acceptable margin of safety and comfort. There is plenty of room for individual variation - bring deodorant if that is what turns you on. I know some very strong climbers who insist on pillows and teddy bears.

Over time, climbers, as well as other outdoor types, have developed what is often referred to as the "Ten Essentials," actually now around twelve or fourteen. There is lively debate about precisely what essentials belong on the list, but I have never seen one that didn't have some first aid gear, artificial light, fire starting gear, and usually some sort of cutting instrument. My outdoor experience, in a variety of venues and situations over the years, is that the "Ten Essentials" is a valid and useful concept. ETS provides masterful advice for anyone who wishes to follow this strategy. I feel uneasy about anyone who pares down the list excessively.
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#195064 - 02/04/10 12:32 AM Re: Backpacking light--deodorant over knife & fire [Re: hikermor]
JohnE Offline
Addict

Registered: 06/10/08
Posts: 601
Loc: Southern Cal
Given that the guy who wrote the original list that started this whole thread didn't specify what sort of weather or terrain he hiked in, I took his list with a huge radicalised grain of salt...

If he tried hiking in the mountains I see out my window, in perfect weather he'd survive, until the weather changed which it is prone to do. When that happened, he'd be crying for help or dying of exposure.

The fact that he's teaching others that his ideas are valid without a ton of "if's, ands and but's" is idiotic if not criminal. A professor of backpacking? Give me a f&#@*+n break.

I'll give him this, his list was very educational, I now know what sort of gear that some of his followers will be asking to "borrow" should I ever run across any of them.




Edited by JohnE (02/04/10 12:33 AM)
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JohnE

"and all the lousy little poets
comin round
tryin' to sound like Charlie Manson"

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#195073 - 02/04/10 03:15 AM Re: Backpacking light--deodorant over knife & fire [Re: JohnE]
jshannon Offline
Addict

Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 576
Loc: North Texas

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#195074 - 02/04/10 03:17 AM Re: Backpacking light--deodorant over knife & fire [Re: JohnE]
PureSurvival Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/09
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
I just want to correct one mistake I made above. I meant to say many UL Ďlong distanceí hikers are professionals or at least semi pro.

Quote:
My outdoor experience, in a variety of venues and situations over the years, is that the "Ten Essentials" is a valid and useful concept. ETS provides masterful advice for anyone who wishes to follow this strategy. I feel uneasy about anyone who pares down the list excessively.


Your experience is yours alone. I know many sports climbers, speed climbers, multi pitch climbers and big wall climbers that climb all over the world and most do not carry anything they don't need. And, the kit they do need is often as light as possible. There are plenty of cases of big wall climbers tied into a ledge for the night wearing their belay jacket, half length sleeping bag and a bothy bag. Drinking powder drinks and eating food bars. The only first aid kit they carry is the stuff they need to patch up their fingers. No survival kit, no fire lighting kit, no signalling kit, just good planning and informing someone where they are going.

Do long distance runners carry a means to light fires and knives, no they donít. I was a semi pro cyclist and cycled hundreds of miles a week in training alone did I or any other cyclists carry that kit. No. Nor do wild swimmers, orienteers, horse riders or most outdoor sports persons. That sort of kit only gets packed when there is a need for it on the whole. Many of the places I have hiked and climbed around the world I could not have had a fire because there was just no fuel.

The only time I carry a full first aid kit is when I am leading a group. If I am out by myself or with friends, I carry a role of vet wrap, a wad of gauze pads and some tape. This is a lot more versatile than standard band aids and bandages. Many mountain leaders in this country and in Europe will carry a role of cellophane in their minimal first aid kit.

If you go out by yourself, a first aid kit, other than for treating very basics injuries, is useless to you if the injury is too bad, shelter is more important than first aid. If you canít get yourself out you need to provide yourself with shelter to help maintain your core body temperature. To put it in another way, our first aid kit can not treat a broken leg. Hypothermia is likely to kill you a lot faster than a broken leg ever will, unless there are other complications such as an internal bleed which your first aid kit canít help with. Shelter is the priority.

Even when you are out in a group, what can you expect to do? Stabilize the casualty and preserve life. That person has a broken leg, you send someone to get help. You need to provide the casualty with shelter to help protect them from hypothermia. Once that is done you can start to think about traction and splinting, traction might be appropriate but you donít need a first aid kit to do that nor for splinting. There is no need to splint if you are going to get medical attention on seen because they are always going to want to replace your work with professional equipment.

Notice I have not mentioned medication. Personal medication is each personís responsibility and is not part of first aid training unless you have done some advanced first aid or medic training. And donít tell me you live in a desert so hypothermia is not a problem. In major trauma cases out in Afstan casualties are wrapped against hypothermia.

This is all in the context of this tread. I agree in certain areas and survival situations weight is not an issue. BOB and first aid kits can be as elaborate as you like providing you are competent to use the items contained in it.

I have more than 20 years experience of the outdoors and survival and my kit is proportionate to the trip I am doing. I agree that the novice just starting out should take more precautions in kit than the more experienced and I know that trouble can strike anyone but I also recognise that there is only so much I can do before laying up in a shelter is my last option.

I also agree that the title of the article is misleading and damn right dangerous. And if that is the kit list for newcomers to hiking, then he is being woefully incompetent but cant that be said for some very established well known primitive survival schools that have not looked after their clients welfare?

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