OK, I'm going to sound really dumb and naive with this one, I know it, but if Raven can't swallow his pride at ETS, there is no place where I can.

Breaking for a light tonight, I had my break pedal pump back at my foot. Roads suck, so I was giving it a lot of time but it was still a close thing. Now, this wasn't a little bit of a tap that I knew it was there, but it felt like a 4-5mm push back at my foot just before I started to really get traction.

Is this normal? The Escape is the first car I've ever owned that didn't suck, so I know a lot about what feels "right" when it is wrong, so I could just be being paranoid. Or do I have a problem?

So I'm no car mechanic, but I've felt a similar thing before. IIRC, it seemed to happen when the wheels lost traction, but I couldn't tell you why it happens. Keeping pressure on the pedal seemed to push it "back" to where it belongs once the wheels hit drier pavement.

The few times I've slammed on ABS, it's been a weird sensation.

I'd have thought something was broken if I didn't know about the ABS.

Started out on and drove a 1969 Mustang for 14 years, so ABS was a big difference.

Sounds normal. I don't know about the 4-5mm part, but AFAIK push back when the ABS pulses is normal.

Without experiencing it first hand it is hard to say for sure but the general description you give sounds like a fair description of what I have experienced as the ABS kicks in.

I grew up when you controlled a skid by steering into it and pumping the brakes. I thought I was pretty good at it and enjoyed being able to trigger the start and stop of a four-wheel drift with a fair bit of precision using the steering and accelerator. Pumping the bakes was just part of the package of what it meant to be a skilled driver.

Of course ABS changed all that. I felt special in may ability to effectively pump the brakes to control a skid and limit stopping distance. ABS took all that away. The engineering says the ABS control system can do a much better job of it. Applying the brake selectively with millisecond timing. My roll is reduced to stomping on the brake. That doesn't make me any happier.

And it feels odd to be having the pedal pumping itself under my foot. Another useful and valuable human skill, a way for a person to set themselves apart and earn a living, reduced to an anachronism.

I see the same thing when I go shopping. Used to be cashiers were required to punch in prices. Many had to pass a nine-key speed and accuracy test. And if you could you were more valuable to an employer and made more money. In a day when minimum wage was close to $2 a nine-key trained person could make $.50 to $1 an hour more. Big money in that day.

Laser scanners did away with that. Now pretty much anyone above room temperature can run a cash register. And cashiers make no more than any other employee.

Thanks guys! Lot less freaked.

It FELT like 4-5mm. Considering this was the biggest kickback I've ever felt from my car when I wasn't hitting something *blush* it probably was half that. It was one of those "ah, hell" moments, because if I didn't stop, I at least had a clear shot all the way down to the lake. I was pretty sure that if I didn't get hung up, the lake was going to stop me. *laughs*

Still need to get proper tires on it. I've found a lot of places with three (3) snow tires for non-obscene amounts. How do you get three snow tires? Are they ordered in multiples of five? Are there that many people who want a spare winter tire?

And Art, I agree with you about the pumping the breaks thing, at least emotionally. But I also know that a controls with feedback sensors are faster than we are. Tell a computer "do everything you can not to die" and it will do at least a good a job as we will, if not better.

Yea, sounds like ABS. I know people say ABS can read the sensors faster than we can but the brake pads can only move so fast. I've also found every one I've ever driven to be way too sensitive, it will engage way too soon. I tested out one time by braking in an empty parking lot with and without ABS (pulling the fuse) and I could beat ABS every time and I don't have the best of reflexes. This was a year 2000 truck with three channel ABS so both rear wheels shared a sensor.
I still prefer the poor mans ABS where you have a true 4x4 with lever shift and to lock the front and back and a manual transmission, basically a wheel on one end can't stop spinning to skid because a wheel on the other end as well as the engine is still turning thereby forcing the wheel that might have skidded to keep turning. I was driving home late one night from work when I went up the raised roadway over the highway and saw the police directing traffic and stopping cars getting on and off the highway because the ones coming over the hill were going through the intersection, sliding or ABS preventing them from stopping. The police saw me coming and stopped traffic then I just down shifted through the gears, got in the left turn lane and slowed down pushed the clutch and braked the last second to a stop. I think the policeman smiled as he waved me through the left turn as the cars in the straight lanes beside skidded on through the intersection.

ABS annoys me. ABS is to stopping as a differential is to acceleration. The wheel with the least traction dictates the effective traction of each of the other wheels.

Thus when one wheel hits a patch of ice just as you roll up to a stop sign, the brakes on the other three wheels release and you skitter into the intersection, because God forbid that one wheel should skid a little.

So in many situations ABS does not stop you in the shortest distance. What it does do is help keep you going straight. A good driver can modulate the brakes and stop quickly without spinning out, but it takes skill. The average idiot just mashes down on the brakes anyway, so ABS is helpful to him.

The lowest common denominator strikes again.

IR, I suggest you take your car to a nice empty parking lot the next time it snows and get some practice with how it responds.

My present vehicle is a pickup truck and it has ABS only on the rear wheels. It makes some sense because the rear wheels on your typical PU are very lightly loaded if your not carrying a load so there is a tendency for the rear wheels to lock up and slide.

The same thing is true on tractor-trailers if they are not carrying a load. I've seen them sliding, smoking and squealing if the trucker tried to stop too fast. Newer trucks have ABS.

The ABS on my truck is pretty primitive. ABS on newer vehicles is smoother and faster.

ABS annoys me too -- I grew up in the era where real men (and women) knew how to pump their brakes, while dropping the automatic into neutral or gently engaging the clutch in a lower gear.

[pauses to pound chest ... and remember the good old days]

That has passed. In all honesty I must confess: even the crudest ABS pumps 5-10 times faster than I could manually. On an icy road, downshift gently and let the engine slow you down, then if necessary punch those ABS brakes and hold 'em. Your job is to steer ... toward the curb where the road is less polished; or straight into the snow-filled ditch; just don't hit another car or a whole 'nother bunch of ugly kicks in.

Yup, basic ABS kicks the pedal. But the bottom line is: ABS works.

Doug has it right. ABS works, and does a better job than even most experienced drivers. Perhaps you can construct an idealized a setup where a racing driver can brake+steer/control the car slightly more efficient without ABS, but that will be a rather special case.


If you feel the ABS kick the pedal - the immediate response is to press it all the way down and let the ABS do what it does best. The car will go straight and you can think out what to do next while you get a gentle foot massage. Exercise in an empty parking lot so you know what it feels like.

After the immediate situation is resolved, take the ABS response as a strong indicator THAT YOU ARE GOING TOO FAST! Your driving behavior is exceeding the traction provided today. Slow down. Drive gently. Imagine you've got a rotten grape between you and the controls - don't crush that grape!


I still practice the art of releasing the brake before steering - I learned to drive before ABS and that response is hard wired into me. I don't know how good that "hardwiring" will be in a true emergency braking situation, though... never been there yet, but ABS will be a huge asset in that situation.

When buying a car, I always make sure that it has disc brakes at all four corners, and four-channel independent ABS. That way, each wheel gets the best braking available in situations with reduced traction.

Raven,

I tried to send you a private message, but your in box is full. If you're still feeling uncomfortable I know people who may know people who can help you (I'll save the details for a PM).

Ken

Actually it doesn't pump, it attempts to threshold brake but modulating the valves and therefore the pressure on the brake pads.

I find most ABS systems to be too sensitive, they will release the pressure too quickly or as someone said any time one wheel slips slightly. Of course if they put more delay into their engagement then their reaction time is less than that of a human so its a difficult balance bewteen the two.

With a lot of modern city streets having large dividers or curbs there isn't any place to steer either so some situations your better off letting the wheels lock and piling up anything they can dig loose in front of them. Thats the fundamantal problem with systems like ABS, traction control, etc they are all reactive to the limited number of inputs they have, can;t see the road ahead or determine if they shouldn't engage in the current situation. IMHO stricter driving tests would be much better.

That's a cheap/poor ABS system. A decent system is a "4-channel" where each tire is monitored and managed independently.

A friend of mine races cars in varying degrees of modification and I asked about ABS in racing once. He says there is no way at all for any human to modulate brake pressure as well as a decent ABS system, but that since he's "driving way ahead of where the car is" he can win by not using ABS - he can anticipate what the situation will be and not just what it is. So he races without ABS, but off the track he always has it on.

Short stopping distances is only one goal for ABS. Control under max braking is just as important: if the wheels lock up the car will spin if there's even the slightest angular momentum at the start.

In that case I admit that I've only ever driven vehicles with cheap/poor ABS systems that modulate the overall brake pressure, rather than each wheel individually.

In that case I can see that a high-end four channel-system could result in a shorter stopping distance under most conditions. The wheels with the most traction get the most braking, while if one wheel hits a slicker spot only the braking on that wheel is relaxed.

ABS kickback through the brake pedal varies quite a bit from one vehicle to another. Newer vehicles are getting progressively better about minimizing it.

All ABS systems are not created equal. I have a '02 Honda Civic that used to be my daily driver. Overall it was a great little car but the ABS system on it was pathetic. It's the one ABS equipped car I've owned that I honestly think I could have done better without ABS.

The big point about ABS is that you can still steer the car with the brakes on full and ABS massaging your foot.

If you lock up the wheels with conventional brakes you are no longer a driver; you have become a passenger. The car slides wherever it wants to.

Yes, if you are very good and very, very practiced, you may be able to keep the wheels on the edge of lockup, but it is unlikely in an emergency situation.

For a test, go out on a straight, smooth, DRY road, preferably highway. 40 MPH for the first test. Check that there is no one behind you for a half mile. Put your foot in it--HARD--and leave it there. Second time do the same and steer a little.

This is good experience in general. You do not want to be in a life threatening situation and be checking your car's capability for the first time.

I did that test in an empty parking lot the first big snow after I got the vehicle. Go out and hit the brakes on the snow/ice and see how it reacts. This was a 3 channel and I could stop better with the abs fuse out every time.

Wife's car doesn't have ABS, we had went to dinner with her parents one time and were on our way back when we came aross a highway overpass and there was an accident in the other lane so right in the middle of the bridge, even though the accident was on the other side of a big cement divider the person in front of us decided she needed to come to a complete stop. I slammed on the brakes and started skidding then said out loud "oh yea, no ABS" released the pressure enough to get traction again and went around her. Of course keeping a safe following disatnce helped there too. I've seen those studies online that say ABS hasn't decreased accident rates since people get over confident because of it and drive a little more riskier.

Sad but too often true that, Eugene. All the statistics I have read said that on their own the various safety systems should prevent X number of accidents and Y number of fatalities. But they only see X/2 reduction in accidents and Y/2 reduction in deaths because people who think the cars will better avoid accidents and save their lives tend to drive carelessly.

Its like the old joke that says if you want to have people drive carefully you would take out the seat belts and rig a foot long iron spike pointed at the heart of the driver in the middle of the steering wheel. Nobody would speed or drive unsafely. In fact few people would drive and those that did wouldn't go over five miles an hour.

People who think, even if it subconscious, that the ABS system will allow them to get away with tailgating and air bags will save their lives tend to take more risks. It doesn't entirely cancel out the benefits of ABS and airbags and the rest of the safety systems but we never see the full benefit either.

My biggest problem with ABS systems is that for them to work their best you need to stomp on the brakes and maintain pressure. Which goes against twenty-five years of training and experience. I reflexively back off the pressure and pump the brakes and it takes a conscious effort to, what used to be called, drive like an idiot.

I'm pretty proud that last time I had to stop fast, after a car stupidly pulled out in front of me, I hit them hard and maintained pressure. I'm also glad that he ABS system worked. I'm still not sure if I could have stopped in time if I had pumped the brakes. But I'm sure that driving like an idiot, braking hard and holding it, if the ABS hadn't worked there would have been a crash. The end was happy because the primitive ABS system on my truck, rear wheels only and one channel, worked. But it still feels weird to be depending on a mechanical system to do what I'm used too be doing on my own.

The ABS in my Jeep isn't working anymore (the pump failed and it's a $1,400 PART to get it working again) so now I have to go from ABS-equipped vehicle (my wife's van) to non-abs equipped vehicle (my Jeep). Kind of important to keep that straight.

Yes, you experienced an ABS activation. The system rapidly pumps the brakes for you, and your system is held active as long as you are stomping down. It feels like a vibration, the pedal drops down a bit and it's odd feeling.
If you're in an ABS activation, just stay stomped down until it deactivates or you regain control of the vehicle.

$1,400! Nice.

If it makes you feel any better my wife took her car in to the dealer for an oil change. ( I was too busy to get to it and we were going to take it out of town. )

Long story short, the dealer lost one of the nuts off the air filter assembly and sent her home with one bolt holding the assembly closed. You can't buy the nut alone so it's a $550 plastic box. The dealer is replacing it at their expense but this is the second and last time they will do any maintenance on my vehicles.

Did I mention that they broke the same part during that vehicles only other appearance in the dealer's service department?

And you want to be careful thinking ABS will decrease your stopping distance. Some really expensive cars in Europe it does and they advertise that but then everyone started thinking that every ABS system does that and the less expensive its simply preventing wheel skid to allow steering and most times actually increases stopping distance.
My old S10 I learned that they had a wire from the transfer case to the ABS to disable it in 4x4low since your going to be off road in in 4x4low and want the dirt/gravel/etc to pile up in front of a skidding tire so dig in in those situations. I thought about putting a switch in that wire to give myself some control.
New truck (2004) its all controlled via the data bus. So unless you can talk the Intel J8150 protocol your out of luck.

The ABS "pump back" WAS designed in, but has (like in the last 1-2 model years) been mostly eliminated because it was causing people to freak out! It was menat as a "Hey, you're breaking a bit hard here - that's OK, but slow down" kind of warning, but they found that people would panic, and take their foot off the brakes

Flashing lots of yellow triangles, exclamation points and snow symbols accompanied by buzzing sounds achieves the same effect, more or less. That has been standard practice of all vehicles with traction control or electronic stability control that I've ever been in. I think everyone will understand a visual "you'
re going to fast - it is slippery" warning from the control panel. Everyone is puzzled by the "foot massage" the first time they feel it.

Electronic stability control does a much better job than ABS alone (all ESC-equipped vehicles use ABS brakes, AFAIK). It takes the fun out of winter driving, but is a huge asset in emergencies. I consider myself an experienced winter driver, but I will NEVER do as good a job as a ESC keeping the vehicle stable in high speed emergency turning.

The most important thing is slowing down and give yourself a wider margin for braking and turning, trying to anticipate what happens next and possible hazards - such as the last 15 feet before a red light is always very slippery - it has been polished by all the vehicles before you braking at the same spot. This attitude is always good practice, but it is even more important when friction is limited.