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#189142 - 11/25/09 12:48 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Pete]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I am perplexed by his failure to boil enough water. The article says he had several canisters of fuel, which implies some sort of gas (isobutane or similar) stove. These are very efficient at heating water - a one liter pot will reach boiling in about four minutes, a time as good or better than many purifiers. With more than one canister, he had plenty of fuel. The area in which he is hiking is a luxuriant pine/fir forest with abundant fuel, if he had to fall back upon a campfire. If I were to go hiking there tomorrow, I would not bother with a filter

Possibly he felt he had to boil his water for an extended time - which is a fallacy.

The article does not mention which map of the Gila he was carrying. Some are better than others, but any of several topo maps would clearly indicate that the trail down the West Fork back to his car was gently descending, well watered, and easy to follow - very comparable to the Middle Fork trail he had just ascended. Covering the 18 miles would be a modest feat for an adequately motivated hiker. But by that time he was caught up in the throes of dehydration.
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Geezer in Chief

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#189145 - 11/25/09 01:27 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: hikermor]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
Might be he didn't have enough storage capability. Boil water, let it cool, fill one or two water bottles, go until you are out of water, repeat.

-john

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#189146 - 11/25/09 01:34 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: hikermor]
Homer_Simpson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/08/07
Posts: 28
It's easy to second guess what we might do or what he should have done, but it's good to read about it either way, one happy ending but the more knowledge you have will help you out if ever in this situation.

I'm our local Boy Scout Scoutmaster, I stress to my boys when planning a trip, or anytime they are going into the woods to plan out the trip, make sure they have enough gear to get them through the trip and enough food to last an extra day or two. And if lost to stay put (hug a tree) but I always stress that someone back home knows where they are going and when they plan to be home, this is one of the most important things to do when planning a trip, at least then you know if you don't make the call when scheduled people will be looking for you, sit down, make a meal have a drink and wait, sooner or later you will be found.



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#189147 - 11/25/09 01:42 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: JohnN]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
John's suggestion is a good one. It's also possible that through inexperience or the onset of early hypothermia that he just wasn't thinking clearly ... and may not have realized he wasn't drinking enough water. And possibly he did not figure in the effects of high altitude - which tends to increase water loss from the body.

It's funny how the human mind reacts, isn't it? He was quite concerned about being lost - and he was very worried about an approaching storm. But he did not identify dehydration as a risk to his life.

Some indicators of dehydration risk:

1. Your urine is turning strongly yellow or brown
2. When you hold the back of your hand close to your mouth,
your breath feels dry and hot.
3. You pause to remember the last time you took a drink of
water - and realize it was several hours ago.

Pete


Edited by Pete (11/25/09 01:43 AM)

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#189149 - 11/25/09 01:54 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Homer_Simpson]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
Homer:

It seems like whenever someone takes the responsibility of team leader - that keeping the team properly hydrated is a very difficult task. I'm not getting down on you at all. It happens to me frequently - and I primarily deal with adults. I find that I can tell people until I am blue in the face that they need to drink a lot of water - and it goes right in one ear and out the other.

Most people who come from an urban background just don't appreciate the importance of drinking enough water in the wilderness. The most common mistake is that people wait until they "feel thirsy" - by which time it's often too late and mild dehydration is already setting in. If I'm paying attention (hopefully!), I literally stop the action and make the affected person sit down and drink a lot of water. Right there, on the spot, in front of my eyes.

I have seen people get quick sick in the wilderness because of prolonged dehydration over a few days. The body's immune systems will get run down and people tend to fall apart after that. And this is not even addressing the more serious concerns of heat stroke and/or loss of sodium/potassium balance.

Anyway - good luck with the Scout troop!! The best way to avoid a lot of problems is to build up the wilderness experience gradually.

Pete


Edited by Pete (11/25/09 01:58 AM)

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#189150 - 11/25/09 02:16 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: hikermor]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
The article shows an MSR Reactor Stove so should be able to boil about 20 litres on a single 250gm cartridge.

Quote:
It was time consuming to boil water each time he needed to drink.


An MSR Reactor Stove will boil a litre of water in under 4 minutes.

On the whole emphasis of the equipment failures in the article were actually pretty minor. Being in a pine forest he could have made a temporary fix to the sole of his boots using tree resin and charcoal ash. The water filter failure again was a minor issue, boiling water needs only a metal pot and a fire even after his gas cartridges ran out. He had access to both.

He doesn't even appear to be actually lost, the White Creek cabin's location would most likely have been marked on the map of the area.

He set up his tent outside and laid out fence posts as a signal beside the cabin, but apparently didn't have the energy to break inside or build a signal fire. Much of this story really doesn't make any sense.

Quote:
He could also see that the weather was starting to change. Clouds were coming in. The wind was picking up. He didn't know what that meant, not being familiar with the climate and territory here, but he knew it was getting colder, he was tired and dehydrated, and needed to get out of the elements.


This quote is particularly lame, then later in the day;

Quote:
He burned some extra socks and clothes. He thought, why carry all this equipment when what I really need is water.


Socks weigh virtually nothing and a change of dry socks can make the difference between a comfy or painful walk home. Then of course the socks can be improvised as mittens, scarve and water carrier (when used in conjunction with a Condom) etc.

Perhaps this chap was just too reliant on his gear, didn't know how to improvise and then panicked or became despondent when his imagined critical survival gear actually failed or didn't work how he imagined it would work.

Some excellent advice from Ray Mears again about not getting even more lost and how to rehydrate the number 1 survival tool is shown here at the end of the this Youtube clip of his new TV show series 'Northern Wilderness'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpWJPobfWd8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moyCJ7Z-EaY











Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (11/25/09 02:26 AM)

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#189152 - 11/25/09 02:23 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Pete]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Originally Posted By: Pete

Some indicators of dehydration risk:

1. Your urine is turning strongly yellow or brown
2. When you hold the back of your hand close to your mouth,
your breath feels dry and hot.
3. You pause to remember the last time you took a drink of
water - and realize it was several hours ago.

Pete

There's one that my bosses keep stressing at work, that I always forget:

lack of armpit sweat.

Gross, but think about it. It's almost always moist.

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#189153 - 11/25/09 02:26 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

The article shows an MSR Reactor Stove so should be able to boil about 20 litres on a single 250gm cartridge.

Quote:
It was time consuming to boil water each time he needed to drink.


An MSR Reactor Stove will boil a litre of water in under 4 minutes.


There are other ways it can be time consuming.

1) boil water
2) let water cool
3) fill water bottles
4) go until you run out of water
5) start over

I didn't read the article, but what if you only have 1 water bottle? Or, even if he has two, what if he has a pot only capable of 1L at a time? Or worse, a cup?

If you are expecting to use a pump filter with plentiful water sources, you could see how they you might not bring many water bottles. Also, if you have water covered with the filter, you could see how you might only have a small container for cooking, or a cup for hot water if you are going light.

Not saying what the situation was, just that there can be a lot of complicating situations.

As for the burning of the socks, seems like he was probably impaired by dehydration at that point.

-john


Edited by JohnN (11/25/09 02:29 AM)

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#189156 - 11/25/09 02:43 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: JohnN]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078

Quote:
I didn't read the article, but what if you only have 1 water bottle?


Lets assume one 1 litre metal water bottle and a 1-2 litre platypus plastic bottle and 1 MSR reactor stove.

Boil 1.5 litres of water (takes 6 minutes). Fill the water bottle with hot water and put it in the stream. Make a cup of tea with the rest. Drink the tea while the water cools down in the stream. (10 minutes to cool down). Transfer to the platypus.

Boil up another 1.5 litres of water. Refill the metal water bottle and consume another .5 litres of tea. Put the metal water bottle back in the stream (another 10 minutes)

Boil up another 1.5 litres of water in the Reactor stove. Lock the lid on the stove pot and cool the pot in the stream.


1 litre of water has been consumed as tea, with the rest of breakfast, lunch or dinner and 3.5 litres of water have been sterilized (enough for the rest of the 24 hrs period) in less than 30-40 minutes.

A couple of condoms and a pair of socks could also improvise another 1-2 litres of water needs. (add another 20 minutes to the total)

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#189157 - 11/25/09 02:51 AM Re: Lost Hiker Does Most Things Right [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor

Quote:
I didn't read the article, but what if you only have 1 water bottle?


Lets assume one 1 litre metal water bottle and a 1-2 litre platypus plastic bottle and 1 MSR reactor stove.


I think 1 bottle != 1 bottle + 1-2 liter bottle.

:-P

And besides, once you are not thinking clearly, you likely aren't going to figure the optimal way to do something.

*shrug*

-john


Edited by JohnN (11/25/09 02:53 AM)

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