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#187785 - 11/07/09 05:57 PM Re: Don't take a gun to a bat fight? [Re: 2005RedTJ]
celler Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/25/03
Posts: 410
Loc: Jupiter, FL
I do not question your motives, your methods, or your resolve. I do not disagree with a single word in your last post.

The only point I was trying to make is that we should prepare for the legal battle as much as the gun battle as both are seriously dangerous.

Your first post could have been read by someone motivated to paint you as a deranged vigilante in a potentially negative light. I understand that you are not and are what I call a "sheepdog", a term I use with honor.

In this crazy PC world we live in, we need to be prepared for the fight after the fight. The first step is to recognize that the second fight exists. That's my only goal with what I have said here.

Your loved ones are lucky to have someone like you protecting them and I wish you well.

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#187793 - 11/08/09 12:24 AM Re: Don't take a gun to a bat fight? [Re: celler]
2005RedTJ Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 475
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama
Originally Posted By: celler
I do not question your motives, your methods, or your resolve. I do not disagree with a single word in your last post.

The only point I was trying to make is that we should prepare for the legal battle as much as the gun battle as both are seriously dangerous.

Your first post could have been read by someone motivated to paint you as a deranged vigilante in a potentially negative light. I understand that you are not and are what I call a "sheepdog", a term I use with honor.

In this crazy PC world we live in, we need to be prepared for the fight after the fight. The first step is to recognize that the second fight exists. That's my only goal with what I have said here.

Your loved ones are lucky to have someone like you protecting them and I wish you well.


I just have a tendency to be quite verbal about something I believe in very strongly. And my line of work and seeing what I see at work a lot of days leans me toward not taking crime lightly. I see so many situations that could have went very differently if some situational awareness were used, or a means to protect oneself were available.

Both in the military and in the civilian world I've gotten in a little trouble a few times for the fact that I always speak my mind. That's something that's not very common noawadays when everything is going all PC and touchy-feely.

Of course my girlfriend says I'd never actually have to shoot anyone or even draw a weapon, I'm that scary-looking. grin

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#187796 - 11/08/09 12:48 AM Re: Don't take a gun to a bat fight? [Re: 2005RedTJ]
comms Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
Originally Posted By: 2005RedTJ


Of course my girlfriend says I'd never actually have to shoot anyone or even draw a weapon, I'm that scary-looking. grin


And there is something to be said for that. Speaking your mind, when someone speaks forcefully and with depth on a subject it tends to lend credence that that person is 'nutty' for the exact reason that they are unafraid of standing up for an idea.
_________________________
Don't just survive. Thrive.

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#187811 - 11/08/09 05:35 AM Re: Don't take a gun to a bat fight? [Re: comms]
Alan_Romania Offline

Addict

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 624
Loc: Arizona
There was more then likely more going on in this situation then the New Times reported or knew about... the "charges' comment may not have ANYTHING to do with the victims defending themselves...


Just sayin'
_________________________
"Trust in God --and press-check. You cannot ignore danger and call it faith." -Duke

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#187813 - 11/08/09 12:38 PM Re: Don't take a gun to a bat fight? [Re: celler]
Desperado Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 1530
Loc: DFW, Texas
Originally Posted By: celler
Never forget, there are two parts to any use of force situation. First, the physical fight, then the potential legal fight. The second one could be almost as dangerous if you live in a jurisdiction with an anti-gun, anti-self-defense prosecutor. Do yourself a favor and learn what is justified use of force in your jurisdiction. It will certainly be different in New York vs. Texas. Resist the temptation to tell your side of the story in the heat of the moment after a dramatic event. Getting in touch with your attorney could save you thousands of dollars and many sleepless nights later. Sad, but unfortunately, likely true.


Having been in law enforcement for eight years in the military, and two years in Oklahoma at the county level...

I am SIMPLY SHOCKED at what I learned constitutes a legal or "good" reason to shoot someone here in Texas......

_________________________
I do the things that I must, and really regret, are unfortunately necessary.

RIP OBG

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#187814 - 11/08/09 12:56 PM Re: Don't take a gun to a bat fight? [Re: celler]
Desperado Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 1530
Loc: DFW, Texas
Originally Posted By: celler
Originally Posted By: 2005RedTJ
<snip>"That's him laying in a pile, bleeding all over the floor, officer. Oh, and I'm going to want those JHP's back, so I can measure them for expansion and penetration."


Please understand that what I am about to say is intended to be helpful, not critical. I believe in your and my right to self-defense.

I hope you are never involved in a deadly-force situation and most of us never will. However, if by some stroke of fate you are and some over-zealous prosecutor decides that you "had it in" for the scumball that broke into your house and goes searching around the internet for your opinions on such issues, you don't want him finding that post.

The internet is not as anonymous as we think it might be. I never write anything that I would not want a judge to see.

In the situation you described, if I could determine that the threat had ended, I would render first aid to this individual and hope he lived. And believe me, I'm not a bleeding-heart criminal coddler. Some LEOs involved in use of deadly force are never able to come to terms with it and leave the profession. Its something to be avoided if at all possible and, at least for me, has led me seek to become more proficient in less-lethal responses.

As always, YMMV.


Once the threat has been stopped, it is a legal responsibility to render aid and call for help. As far as I know, that is universal in all 50 states.

My lawyer told me once the threat is neutralized I have two calls to make:

1) 911 to request (in this order) EMS and Law Enforcement. I am to say my name, location, and I have had to shoot an attacker. I am to tell the dispatcher I need EMS and LE. Then I am to ask the dispatcher to tell me when Law Enforcement arrives so that I may disarm and exit the structure (or whatever). This allows me to ensure a safe arrival for the LEO's, EMS, and me.

2) The second call is to my Lawyer. I am to tell the LEO's RESPECTFULLY, that I want legal representation and have nothing to say until it arrives.

During the time I am waiting for LE/EMS to arrive, I have a legal responsibility to ensure the subject is no longer harmed, and to render reasonable aid according to the levels of my current training.
_________________________
I do the things that I must, and really regret, are unfortunately necessary.

RIP OBG

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#187815 - 11/08/09 01:06 PM Re: Don't take a gun to a bat fight? [Re: 2005RedTJ]
Desperado Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 1530
Loc: DFW, Texas
Originally Posted By: 2005RedTJ


"I just have a tendency to be quite verbal about something I believe in very strongly. "



Then, like myself, you are going to have to learn when to temper your words.

I have been working on this task for almost 39 years, and I figure I am about one third of the way to completion............. laugh laugh


Edited by Desperado (11/08/09 01:07 PM)
_________________________
I do the things that I must, and really regret, are unfortunately necessary.

RIP OBG

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#187818 - 11/08/09 02:20 PM Re: Don't take a gun to a bat fight? [Re: Desperado]
UncleGoo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 377
Loc: CT
Originally Posted By: Desperado


1) 911 to request (in this order) EMS and Law Enforcement. I am to say my name, location, and I have had to shoot an attacker. I am to tell the dispatcher I need EMS and LE. Then I am to ask the dispatcher to tell me when Law Enforcement arrives so that I may disarm and exit the structure (or whatever). This allows me to ensure a safe arrival for the LEO's, EMS, and me.

2) The second call is to my Lawyer. I am to tell the LEO's RESPECTFULLY, that I want legal representation and have nothing to say until it arrives.

During the time I am waiting for LE/EMS to arrive, I have a legal responsibility to ensure the subject is no longer harmed, and to render reasonable aid according to the levels of my current training.


+1--Needs to printed and carried in the wallet...or engraved on the weapon.
_________________________
Improvise,
Utilize,
Realize.

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#187832 - 11/08/09 11:17 PM Re: Don't take a gun to a bat fight? [Re: Desperado]
2005RedTJ Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 475
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama
Originally Posted By: Desperado
Originally Posted By: 2005RedTJ


"I just have a tendency to be quite verbal about something I believe in very strongly. "



Then, like myself, you are going to have to learn when to temper your words.

I have been working on this task for almost 39 years, and I figure I am about one third of the way to completion............. laugh laugh


Yeah, I know. 40+ years myself.

All joking aside, unless I can clearly determine 100% for sure that the person I've drawn down on is someone who is not supposed to be inside my house, I'm not pulling the trigger.

I've been in that exact situation years ago when I was married. My in-laws were staying with us, and went out of town for the weekend. They returned a full 24 hours earlier than they told us they were going to without bothering to call. I drew down on the silhouette in the doorway at 3am and demanded to know who they were and what their purpose was in being in my house.

If I drew down on a bad guy I'd call 911 and keep the person at gunpoint, whether I have shot them or not, until the police arrive. If they make a run for it, I'm not about to shoot them in the back and get myself into a world of trouble. I have no medical training to provide much aid for the damage that a gunshot would cause. I would not be shooting them with a .22, so I have no doubt it would do major damage.

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#187846 - 11/09/09 01:42 AM Re: Don't take a gun to a bat fight? [Re: Desperado]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
"Once the threat has been stopped, it is a legal responsibility to render aid and call for help. As far as I know, that is universal in all 50 states."

Is this the same as stopping to render assistance at the site of an accident (Good Samaritan), or is this specific to shooting someone?

Sue

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