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#185461 - 10/16/09 12:10 AM Re: AED Questions [Re: NobodySpecial]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
There have been good results using defibrillators on people hit by lightning.
The American Heart Association has an article on it.
_________________________
May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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#185466 - 10/16/09 01:03 AM Re: AED Questions [Re: scafool]
Alan_Romania Offline

Addict

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 631
Loc: Arizona
To answer your questions:

1) Does anyone have experience with refurb AED's?
Refurbished AEDs are pretty much as good as new, except often not the newest technology. I have used refurbished cardiac monitor/defibrillators over the years and think they are a good choice for agencies with tight budgets.

2) Any specific manufacturer better than the rest?
I have my favorites, but it is nothing more then personnel preference. Stick with the big names like Medtronics/Physiocontrol (aka LifepPak), Zoll and Philps.

3) Is a vehicle mounted/charged (12VDC) option available?
Yes, however for your application you would be better suited with a unit that has a 2 to 5 year battery and doesn’t require a charger.

4) Is a refurb AED like the refurb parachute, better than nothing?
No, see question #1 above… a refurbed AED is tested and like new. You need to make sure you purchase refurbs from the company that does the work.

5) If purchased new, what is the life cycle on something like this?
Really it is dependent on how it is abused/used. We have a defibrillator that is over 15 years old, it continues to function and pass annual tests… this unit was on a busy ALS engine company for 6 years as the primary monitor/defibrillator and as a backup since then.

6) How often / how expensive is re-calibration?
Again, depends on the unit, but if you get one of the 5 year shelf life… well, 5 years unless you use it or something happens to it.

7) How long is training?
An AED can be used by anyone, but I highly suggest at the minimum a basic CPR class with AED. For what you are doing, a 40hr First Responder course (like ARC’s Emergency Response) would give you some more training and tools for a wider scope of emergencies.

8) What legal mess am I opening up?
Yes and no, as a “Good Samaritan” you may be covered where you live/work (you will need to check local laws). However, there is always a potential legal problem anytime you render aide to an injured or sick person. There is also legal risk for NOT rendering aide, especially in a remote environment. Only you can ask yourself if the risk outweights the benefit or vice versa.

9) Anything I missed?

Most AEDs that are designed for applications like you are thinking of are pretty simple. The daily check is simply checking the indicator light/window on the AED to see if it passed its own daily self-test and is in the ready state. Most of these units have disposable batteries that require replacement every 2-5 years and you can get a spare battery to throw in trunk if you wanted. While these aren’t the units I chose for our fire department (mostly because of a different set of requirements) I would seriously look at Zoll’s AED Plus (which I believe uses Type 123 batteries).

As far as getting one legally, everyplace is different but I do know more than one person who has gotten one by getting s prescription from their doctor. With today’s technology, it would be really hard to do harm with one (but not impossible).
_________________________
"Trust in God --and press-check. You cannot ignore danger and call it faith." -Duke

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#185468 - 10/16/09 01:16 AM Re: AED Questions [Re: NobodySpecial]
Alan_Romania Offline

Addict

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 631
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: NobodySpecial
>Desperado
It wouldn't be my first safety purchase for a remote job site.
But Amazon are selling them for home use for $1300. The ads are a little dishonest, a big scary chart showing how cardiac arrest kills twice as many people as all other accidents - true but an AED doesn't help for most sudden cardiac arrests.

That statement is somewhat inaccurate.

While some people who suffer sudden cardiac death are simple dead right then and nothing is going to change that, the initial rhythm in many sudden cardiac is a rhythm that is "shockable" and thus an AED would be beneficial. While good quality CPR (especially CCC-CPR) has been shown to be extremely effective in sudden cardiac death, its effectiveness is maintaining or returning the heart to a state where defibrilation is effective (or more effective). Continuous Compressions do this by maintaining a good blood pressure with uninterrupted chest compressions and circulating the oxygen that was in the blood already at the time of collapse. This is also why CCC-CPR and AEDs are less or ineffective on Traumatic and other non-cardiac arrests.

Quote:
AED doesn't necessarily help people with an otherwise normal healthy heart that have a cardiac attack from an accident (or too many burgers) they only help people who get an irregular heart rhythm.
So they are more likely to be needed in a public place with a large cross-section of random people than a job site with otherwise healthy people who might have a heart attack.


Someone who has "too many burgers" doesn't have a healthy heart. While I will agree that sometimes these individuals are not savable, they are the people an AED will help. Yes the likely hood of using an AED is minimal, but there is a reason they are so many cardiac arrest saves in Las Vegas at Casino's, because they have AEDs and security knows how to use them with effective CPR... one of my paramedic students is alive today because of this.


Edited by Alan_Romania (10/16/09 01:23 AM)
_________________________
"Trust in God --and press-check. You cannot ignore danger and call it faith." -Duke

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#185484 - 10/16/09 02:27 AM Re: AED Questions [Re: Alan_Romania]
NobodySpecial Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 197
I was just making the point than an AED isn't a magic box for everytime someone's heart stops.
It's fantastic for a limited number of heart conditions (and it's even cleverer in being able to detect these conditions and only shock if useful).

But showing a statistic that sudden cardiac arrest kills 2x as many people as all other accidents in order to sell an AED is dishonest. It's like selling parachutes in airports to passengers on 747s.


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#185531 - 10/16/09 10:31 AM Re: AED Questions [Re: NobodySpecial]
Desperado Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 1530
Loc: DFW, Texas
Personally, I have always been looking for the parachute vending machine in the airport. I always felt better in the past lugging that extra weight, even knowing that WAS how I would ultimately reach the ground if the plane was functioning as advertised.
_________________________
I do the things that I must, and really regret, are unfortunately necessary.

RIP OBG

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#185536 - 10/16/09 12:03 PM Re: AED Questions [Re: Alan_Romania]
Desperado Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 1530
Loc: DFW, Texas
Now we are getting somewhere.

The legal beagles have advised a blanket liability policy incase I wind up in court, but having a pool, GSD's, a CHL, teen drivers, and etc. I already have that.

My next step is training, training and more training.

I lost the original information sheet I keep at every job site, but I shall attach the basics. If anyone sees something I missed, please let me know.


Attachments
Job Site Info Sheet.pdf (3242 downloads)

_________________________
I do the things that I must, and really regret, are unfortunately necessary.

RIP OBG

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#185549 - 10/16/09 01:53 PM Re: AED Questions [Re: NobodySpecial]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2196
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Originally Posted By: NobodySpecial
But showing a statistic that sudden cardiac arrest kills 2x as many people as all other accidents in order to sell an AED is dishonest. It's like selling parachutes in airports to passengers on 747s.


Not to bag on you, but the above is a funny statement (which I realize was taken off Amazon)

I mean, seriously? "cardiac arrest" doesn't kill people - it's essentially the definition of dead.

My other pet peeve are news reports that show BLAH BLAH BLAH prevents X % of deaths... geez folks, death is 100%. Say it delays death, if you're going to blow smoke up someone's keister.

Back on topic.

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#185653 - 10/16/09 11:50 PM Re: AED Questions [Re: MDinana]
UpstateTom Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/09
Posts: 165
Loc: Rens. County, NY
Originally Posted By: MDinana


My other pet peeve are news reports that show BLAH BLAH BLAH prevents X % of deaths... geez folks, death is 100%. Say it delays death, if you're going to blow smoke up someone's keister.

Back on topic.


smile A co-worker's favorite expression is "we're all going to die", when asked how bad any particular situation is. When the response is "really??", he answers "well sure, eventually."

If you count all the lives saved with seatbelts and airbags and the national 35 mph speed limit and the banning of lawn darts, it would exceed the national population.

Back on topic - Will you have a radio out there that can reach someone? I would put that before the AED, but the AED does sound like a good idea as long as everyone out there knows how to use it. If you're solo it would obviously be pretty useless.


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#185662 - 10/17/09 01:18 AM Re: AED Questions [Re: Desperado]
Polak187 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 1403
Loc: Brooklyn, New York
1) Does anyone have experience with refurb AED's?
Yes and they are refurbished to mfgs specs. Nothing wrong with them.

2) Any specific manufacturer better than the rest?
Philips seems to be the all time favorite. Welch Allyn was all favorite at JFK left alone in the cases being checked once a week.

3) Is a vehicle mounted/charged (12VDC) option available?
They have build in batteries some models have interchangeable batteries. On some models you do the daily check which requires you to look at small lcd screen which shows you if unit is ready. We have some back up units that haven’t been used in 2 years and show full charge. Some old units had a standard battery charger and it required a 110V outlet. If you get that all you need is a good converter. Also pads have expiration date so you need to pay attention to that.

4) Is a refurb AED like the refurb parachute, better than nothing?
Yes but look at my comments in the end.

5) If purchased new, what is the life cycle on something like this?
I have AEDs that delivered 12 shocks in the field and battery was still good.

6) How often / how expensive is re-calibration?
Every time you turn it on for checkup unit recalibrates itself.

7) How long is training?
Hah. CPR plus AED use is about 2-3 days. But if you are going to go all the way get CFR-D training.

8) What legal mess am I opening up?
Huge. When traveling in Nepal I walked into a remote clinic and after looking around I asked where the defiblirator was. MD looked at me and answered: and if I bring them back what will I do with them since nearest hospital is 2 days away or $3000 2 hr flight away. So few things will happen if you shock somebody:
a) you shock them and they will regain pulse but no breathing so you have to keep breathing for them.
b) you shock them and there is no change in their status so you will continue cpr.
c) no shock so you will keep going with cpr.
d) you shock them and they will come right back and this is what early defibliration is all about. Put them in the right position and wait for the glory.

Now what if you need to continue with cpr or rescue breathing for your patient and they are going to survive only to be found to be brain dead? What if family decides to take a chunk out of you because your cpr have been not up to the AHA standards? And believe me they will win because anyone put on the stand will testify against you that cpr quality on one rescuer goes down the longer it is performed. I rotate my guys every two minutes.


9) Anything I missed?
Yes mate. Cardiac arrest is a serious business. It aint pretty and TV moments where you shock them and they walk home are far appart. Early defibliration and good cpr increases survival but you kill it with delay response of EMS due to your distance from hospital and travel times. Now there are different types of AEDs out there... Some will shock only Vfib and some will do Vfib and Vtach.

Being a vigilante first responder is great until you hit the law wall. That disgruntled family is going to go after company who is going to wash their hands off you faster than you can explain yourself. Than you are left alone. And homicide is just one of the charges that would come to my mind. And it sucks man because all you want to do is some good.

Maybe you can find a local volunteer EMS squad/corp that can let you work under their license. That would save you from a lot of trouble. Last time I checked AEDs were given out by prescription to people who needed them so that means you had to use them on your family. You needed an MD to sign off on one if I wanted to get one for an ambulance corp. I know there are docs out there that would give you anything you want but what if they gave you permission to get one for you and your family and you used it on the stranger and created a mess? It will be your butt on the lane mate….











_________________________
Matt
http://brunerdog.tripod.com/survival/index.html

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#185666 - 10/17/09 02:17 AM Re: AED Questions [Re: UpstateTom]
Desperado Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 1530
Loc: DFW, Texas
Originally Posted By: UpstateTom
Originally Posted By: MDinana


My other pet peeve are news reports that show BLAH BLAH BLAH prevents X % of deaths... geez folks, death is 100%. Say it delays death, if you're going to blow smoke up someone's keister.

Back on topic.


smile A co-worker's favorite expression is "we're all going to die", when asked how bad any particular situation is. When the response is "really??", he answers "well sure, eventually."

If you count all the lives saved with seatbelts and airbags and the national 35 mph speed limit and the banning of lawn darts, it would exceed the national population.

Back on topic - Will you have a radio out there that can reach someone? I would put that before the AED, but the AED does sound like a good idea as long as everyone out there knows how to use it. If you're solo it would obviously be pretty useless.



Cell phone (that is why we are there after all) trunked radio (if we can hit a repeater) and SATPHONE if we are really in the sticks.


Edited by Desperado (10/17/09 02:18 AM)
_________________________
I do the things that I must, and really regret, are unfortunately necessary.

RIP OBG

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