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#183474 - 09/29/09 04:10 AM Should survival prep include self-defense training
dweste Offline

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Should survival preparation include self-defense training and gear?

If so, what kind?



#183477 - 09/29/09 04:54 AM Re: Should survival prep include self-defense training [Re: dweste]
comms Offline

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
I think survival preparation needs to be more fitness oriented than attack/defense. Having the cardiovascular ability to walk home 15 miles seems more important than a proper arm bar. Having some muscularity to protect your body from an impact more than having a tight shot group at 25 yards.

Though writing this I wonder if my chances of some drunk challenging me might be greater than the chances a natural disaster or grid reducing event.

I think I still believe the mind and body be prepared before we add gear or technique.
Don't just survive. Thrive.

#183479 - 09/29/09 05:13 AM Re: Should survival prep include self-defense training [Re: comms]
2005RedTJ Offline

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 475
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama
I'd say resoundingly, yes. It doesn't have to come to the end of the world for bad stuff to happen. Some people, by nature, prey on other people. Having proper mindset, training, and tools at your disposal plays a huge role in how a bad situation turns out for you.

Someone wanting to rob you or cause you harm isn't going to schedule an appointment to do so. Several times in my life, I've found myself in a position to have to make snap decisions. Do I draw my CCW weapon? Do I fire? I've had to draw several times, but never fired. Make no mistake though, once the decision was made to draw, I was 100% ready to use it if the threat didn't dissipate.

One thing I swear by is simple situational awareness. Paying close attention to your surroundings can keep you out of a lot of bad situations. I've never done any research on it, but I'd bet a lot of people you see walking around oblivious with a lot of jewelry, nice car or clothes, staring at their feet or listening to their Ipod - those ore probably the people singled out as easy targets.

#183484 - 09/29/09 09:17 AM Re: Should survival prep include self-defense training [Re: 2005RedTJ]
MostlyHarmless Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 982
Loc: Norway
I urge anyone to spend some time browsing through the no nonsense web page. A very condensed version would be what the above posters said above: Situation awareness and avoidance.

Some other tips to be learned: Muggers don't pick their location and targets at random, try to spot them BEFORE you are cornered. Recognize a threat display for what it is (see how dangerous I am? Back of NOW or else...!), then de-fuse (leave) instead of participating. The "show no fear" (don't let them see I'm afraid) attitude will probably get you in a lot of trouble, stuff it somewhere safe along with your ego and back off. If you are afraid of a person, you probably have good reasons - gut reactions don't lie (although anxiety can cloud judgment and perception).

I am all for training, learning flashy moves and techniques and so forth, (including firearms if you consider that appropriate), but I urge everyone to learn the limitations and under what circumstances such response can be warranted. What makes me mad is thinking about all kinds of self defense and material arts courses and training that a) does not address situation awareness, b) does not teach you the limitation of the techniques (when to apply, when NOT to apply). I think most of what is learned in such classes will be ineffective against a determined aggressor (he's been doing this kind of stuff on a regular basis since 12, and you what - took some evening classes??? Get real!). And if your attacker is not in that category, almost any use of force is excessive which can and will cause all kind of legal problems.

An old joke: Using your self defense/martial arts training will only give you trouble in these two limited set of circumstances:
1) When it doesn't work.
2) When it works.

#183490 - 09/29/09 11:14 AM Re: Should survival prep include self-defense training [Re: MostlyHarmless]
MDinana Offline

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2184
Loc: Deep south... Carolina
All these guys make a good point. I think, however, that situational awareness is probably the number one thing. For example, over my life I've lived in LA, Philly, and Detroit. I've been mugged once, and pretty much argued with the guy when he told me to go turn the corner and into a dark neighborhood, rather than stay in a well traveled street. Funny thing is, I knew it was going to happen about 10 seconds before it did.

My point is, in all that time, I've never had any sort of bar fight, street fight, escalating argument... even if I had a CCW, I've never in my life had a chance to use it. I truly believe that even when I was mugged, if push come to shove, I would have used my hands before drawing (since he was within a foot of me). With respect to RedTJ, I have to wonder if carrying a firearm makes you 'want' to use it and thus put yourself into situations that you might have gotten out of?

Have I had self defense? Yeah, but it was 15 years ago. I remember the basics, but I doubt I'm limber enough to roundhouse kick some guy in the head. I mean, a good soccer kick to the groin and a few good punches should do the job, IF you get the drop on someone. Maybe the best part of training is learning to take a hit. Another thing- few street fights stay upright for any length of time, so I'd suggest if you do anything, judo, wrestling, or some sort of rolling-around-on-the-ground style would be the most beneficial.

#183491 - 09/29/09 11:25 AM Re: Should survival prep include self-defense training [Re: MostlyHarmless]
Tyber Offline

Registered: 04/27/09
Posts: 292
Loc: ST. Paul MN
I think that Self defense should be included, for two reasons that are not about self defense.

The first advantage of taking self defense on a regular basis is exercise.. This will allow you to be able to run for cover faster. Being physically fit will enable you to handle what ever rigors occur during a survival situation.

The second advantage is Confidence.. Just having the confidence to that you can handle things (whether real or imaginary.) This confidence I believe will help to dissuade attackers. People who prey upon people who are easy targets. Inner confidence can prevent a lot of issues.

Just my thoughts on the subject

#183509 - 09/29/09 03:03 PM Re: Should survival prep include self-defense training [Re: Tyber]
Rodion Offline

Registered: 04/29/08
Posts: 285
Loc: Israel
Personally, I believe self-defense should be in the required curriculum of every person on the planet. Besides the obvious benefits a good martial art provides, it also gives you an entirely different way to express yourself.

Then again, I also think everyone should learn cooking, shooting, first aid, acting, debating, horse-riding and speaking as many languages as they can master...

Regardless, as far as survival goes, of course you want to be a good fighter. The reason is, you're no longer at anyone's mercy. The first thing you learn in a good fighting school (dojo? not so much) is that a black belt will friggin' kill you given the chance and to run like hell if you're ever in a fight. The second thing is, black belts are people, too. If you blind-side or otherwise trick them, they go down just like the rest of us. Well, just like the buffer, meaner versions of us. Point is, you can always fight back, even if not directly.

What to study? So far I've gone through Ninjutsu (scam), Karate (lol) and Krav Maga (ouch). From my limited experience, I'd recommend Muay Thai sprinkled with some sort of wrestling, be it Judo, Jiu-Jitsu or anything that teaches you to stay alive in a horizontal position. That's the mix I'm most afraid of, anyway.

Kung Fu practitioners can be pretty damn imposing, but I suspect it has more to do with the insane amount of training and conditioning they go through than actual technique.

Finally, weapons. Locking knives are illegal in Israel, so I've got nothing of substance to contribute. My personal impression is that a one-handed opening knife might be a life-saver if concealed properly, but it has little stopping power. Guns are illegal as well, so it's a moot point. I suppose I'd want to be a decent shot in a Zombocalypse, but doubt I'll get the chance to use this particular skill otherwise.
Whenever you rest, someone, somewhere is training to kick your ass.


#183515 - 09/29/09 03:25 PM Re: Should survival prep include self-defense training [Re: Rodion]
oldsoldier Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 742
Loc: MA
I am sort of mixed when it comes to learning self-defense. Martial arts are usually just that-arts. self defense is a little different-it USUALLY requires you to disable your aggressor long enough to retreat. I studied martial arts of varying disciplines for the vast majority of my life-and, I would say that they have VERY limited use in real world scenarios. One major flaw of martial arts is that your attacker rarely, if ever, is standing still, waiting for you to do something. Another is what has been referred to as pigeon-holing; you get used to the mindset of "if this happens, I do this"-this rarely works out. One thing I took away from years of it WERE the binding and groundfighting skills. When it comes to jointlocks, a lot of them dont work on people-which is scary if you are trying to use only one lock on someone, and it fails. Smooth transitioning is usually the way to go-but I digress.
When we were in Cuba, we had the opportunity to work with some Israeli guy who taught us Hagganah (I likely spelled it wrong). The concept was simple; disable your attacker through extreme violence, and block out your own pain. Sure, we learned a lot of cool techniques-painful disabling blows, strikes, and pressure points. Most was designed to cause permanent, serious damage (mind you, this was in the Army, and if the attacker is dead, he cant get up to hit you again!!). It was also focused on pain management-almost every neat little strike we learned, we did on each other (a little gentler, but enough to inflict pain), so that you understand how effective it is. The 3 weeks or so I spent in that course, I learned more than in 10+ years in martial arts. There wasnt any fancy moves, or yelling, or anything; it was simply "shrug off the punch to the face, get hold of your aggressor, and incapacitate him as quick as possible".
Now, it isnt for everyone, and I am aware of that. It certainly isnt self defense, nor was it marketed like that to us. It was a fast way to end a confrontation-if it lasted more than 10 seconds, you were doing it wrong. It also had a lot to do with setting your mind on your task; dealing with the pain, not getting tunnel vision, and working through exhaustion (we would normally do a couple mile's running, with various mind exercises on the way, before our class). The whole course was enlightening, to say gthe least-but, again, not for everyone. There is a very real chance you will kill someone-thats what it was designed for. Not to aid in your retreat, not to allow you time to call for help-to incapacitate your attacker so he simply cannot get up to hurt you.
my adventures

#183535 - 09/29/09 04:15 PM Re: Should survival prep include self-defense trai [Re: dweste]
philip Offline

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 639
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: dweste
Should survival preparation include self-defense training and gear?

No. First of all, let's see what we mean by survival preparation. Then let's see how much we want to cram in to the course. Survival means too much to have much meaning.

Do you mean urban survival after the big earthquake here in the Bay Area? That's different from urban survival in New Orleans after the big hurricane. Do you mean survival after becoming lost in the woods in your local state park? After becoming lost in Yosemite? Alaska? All the preparations for those are different. How to find or make shelter. How to find or make fire. How to be warm and dry.

Do you mean first aid? Again, urban first aid while waiting for the ambulance? Urban first aid in New Orleans after Katrina when there won't be an ambulance? Wilderness first aid when you've got to get the patient or yourself back to where contact can be made to ask for help?

I've taken my share of first aid courses, and I've taken self-defense courses. But each was geared to a specific end. Mushing all that stuff up together just gets all the supposed lessons confused and watered down. There are too many different levels of attendees and too many different expectations. When I take a course, I have a specific goal in mind, and I pick a course that takes that goal into account and teaches it.

If you want self-defense training, take the courses. In my very humble opinion, self-defense is a day to day thing that has nothing to do with survival preparation. You see too many fights among drunks at sporting events to think of atomic bombs on DC or whatever the latest movie is and how everyone is going to turn into, uh, drunks at football games and attack each other.

Don't confuse self-defense with survival. We've had decades of experience with hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes, and I'm not remembering any battles between survivors nor even among the people trying to evacuate. Generally, people pull together in big emergencies. It's the day to day crap in life where you'll need self-defense training. I'm not going to break a guy's knee then put a splint on it.

#183564 - 09/29/09 06:10 PM Re: Should survival prep include self-defense training [Re: MDinana]
haertig Offline

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2035
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: MDinana
I have to wonder if carrying a firearm makes you 'want' to use it and thus put yourself into situations that you might have gotten out of?

Less so, actually. You are much more inclined to be aware, identify a risky situation, and then avoid it when you are armed. BTW, I'm talking "legally armed" of course.

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