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#66832 - 06/05/06 12:21 AM Re: rossi for survival?
wildcard163 Offline

Registered: 09/04/05
Posts: 417
Loc: Illinois
Maybe... bad habit of mine, somebody says AR, and I immediately assume they're talking about Mattel's rifle, not auto-rifles in general.
Nice article, but thats for sportsmen pushing the envelope...testing their skills and abilities. Getting back to the griz showdown, if it's ANY AR, then make it a Barret semi-auto .50, and I might be comfortable giving it a shot (or five) <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.


#66833 - 06/06/06 04:11 AM Re: rossi for survival?
MrB Offline

Registered: 06/06/06
Posts: 2
Loc: WA
Greets to you all!

I would like to weigh in with my 2 cents worth if I may.
This is my opion only and by no means should be considered the gospel truth. I wrote this for another group I frequent but I would like to share with you. I hope that it might help someone.

The Survival Arsenal

What you choose to fill your arsenal is largely dependent on your whole philosophy of what you are preparing for. Here are some possible scenarios:

1) Pandemic
2) Natural Disasters
3) Economic Instability/Social Breakdown
4) Martial Law/Civilian Disarmament
5) Civil War
6) UN/NWO Takeover
7) World War (Nuclear or Biological)

Other factors that could influence your choices are as follows:
1. What can you afford?
2. Where do you live? Are you planning on bugging out or hunkering down?
3. How old are your children? Can they competently shoot a .22lr? How about a larger caliber?
4. Do you plan on hunting for sustenance?
5. How does your family perceive your preparations? Are they behind you 100% or consider you eccentric? This will affect how well they will train/prepare for TSHTF.


The 1 Gun Scenario:
If you can only afford one gun, make it a single shot, over/under style. Try to get .22 LR over 12 GA. Other gauges (20, .410) are acceptable as long as you can stock enough ammo for it to last the life of the gun. The ammo is common enough for both as to probably be available in almost anyplace you might be.
Primary - Hunting small/large game animals
Secondary - Home Defense against Intruders

Your geographic location will have an effect on what make the best arsenal, so I will break this down into Rural and Urban choices.

Letís examine what I consider to be the basic survival arsenal for a rural area:

Basic (Budget)
1) Shotgun, 12 Gauge
Primary - Hunting small/large game animals
Secondary - Home Defense against Intruders

2) Large Bore (Bolt/Lever Action) Rifle, Legal Hunting Caliber
Primary - Hunting large game animals
Secondary - Sniping/Home defense

3) Rifle, .22 LR caliber, Bolt Action
Primary - Hunting small game animals
Secondary - Home defense

This selection provides a diversity of calibers that each compliment the other.

The shotgun is capable of taking deer and bear, as well as vehicles when using slugs. With #6 shot, it will be adequate at close range for home defense without too much risk of over penetration. A pump shotgun is 1st choice, followed by the double barrel and then the single shot.

My recommendations are Mossberg pump (500/590/etc...) and the Remington 870. There are lots of choices for accessories for these rifles
The large bore rifle should be a common, preferably military cartridge. The Mosin-Nagant 91/30 is a great value for the cost and is a good long distance and hunting round. They cost around $90 at chain sporting good stores (Big 5 in my area) and 440 rds. of 7.62x54R 147-grain FMJ Ammo is $49.97 from the Sportsmanís Guide http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=260528 Stay away from the 200 grain surplus ammo that is available as it may be designed for machineguns and therefore have too high of pressure for your rifle!
The M38 is a good choice also but has a pretty good muzzle blast. The same holds true with the M44. These rifles have been arsenal reconditioned and are in pretty fair shape. The Finnish m/39 Mosin-Nagant is reputed to be a better quality rifle, but as such it is harder to get and more expensive.

The 8mm Mauser would be my 2nd choice for around $120; 380 rds. of 8 mm 154-grain FMJ is $32.97 http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=217693 The condition of these is not as good as the Mosin-Nagant, but is acceptable for the price.
The Mauser can be re-barreled to .308/7.62x51and makes a nice rifle as such. Re-barreling though may be beyond the reach of some, lacking skill to do it themselves or income to pay to have this work done. If that is the case, they are better off to invest in Mil-surp ammo than spend the extra dough re-barreling. There are other bolt actions rifles available, but probably pricier than the Yugo m24/47 Mausers hitting the Surplus market currently. Surplus .308 is also more expensive than the other calibers mentioned above. Some of the Indian surplus ammo also has problems so avoid it if you go this route.
Since the ammo is fairly inexpensive for these you should be able to stockpile plenty and still afford to practice with your rifle. It must be noted that the ammo I have mentioned above is for the most part Corrosive Primed and your weapons should be cleaned soon after firing it.
Visit Surplusrifle.com and read up on the available Mil-Surp rifles and their ammo.

Other non-military rifles in common calibers are available, but will cost more to purchase and buy spare parts for. Unless you are flush with cash, stay away from exotic calibers as ammo for these will become hard to find. The .243, .270 and 7mm are popular hunting cartridges, but unless you are into reloading, and have lots of supplies, the ammo cost to support these rifles long term is prohibitive. They may however have a place in a limited Sniping role.
Another choice is a lever action Marlin 336 or Winchester mdl 94 in .30-30. It is a common enough caliber and it is more than adequate for harvesting deer. Lever actions are available in other calibers but I wouldn't recommend them as a primary weapon for survival.

The .22 LR is available in so many different models and brands that it could fill a whole book. I will only mention those here that I believe meet the requirements. The cheapest model worth purchasing would be a magazine fed bolt action. No Single Shots.

So why not an assault rifle?
Because the Assault rifle is too costly for the basic budget.
Most assault rifles come in .223 caliber.
The .223 is not legal to hunt with in most states.
The effective range is less than a battle rifle
The cost is generally more than a Mil-surp battle rifle.
The penetration of the .223 is less than a battle rifle.
Even the 7.62x39 is not as effective as the major military calibers for battle rifles
Hunting with an Evil Black Rifle will draw possible un-wanted attention to you and your family.

The assault rifle has its place, just not in the basic arsenal. Read further on to find where AR's fit in.

A basic budget Arsenal would be the 22 LR, Mossberg 590 and the Mosin-Nagant bolt action. This arsenal can be assembled with some ammo for under $1000 dollars. It is also capable of filling all hunting roles from squirrels to Elk. Also, it is adequate for home defense, up to a point.

Once you have established the basic arsenal, you might wish to expand it as your finances allow. Don't over buy if you can't afford to stock the ammo for it. Your money would be better spent on food, spare parts and other gear. Few things are more useless than a gun without ammo. It just becomes an awkward club. Spare parts are a must! Learn how to install them.

In addition to the above choices:
Advanced (Budget)

1) Military Surplus Semi-Auto Battle Rifle
Primary - Home defense
Secondary - Hunting game animals

2) Semi-Auto Assault Rifle
Primary - Home defense

3) Rifle, .22 LR caliber, Semi-Auto
Primary - Hunting small game animals
Secondary - Home defense

There are many choices here but only 2 are actual Mil-Surp. The rest are re-assembled parts from de-milled selective fire military rifles with new Semi-Auto recievers. And since we are talking low budget, these 2 fit the bill. They are the M1 Garand and the SKS.
Now the question. Why the SKS?
1. Low recoil.
2. Ballistics are comparable to the .30-30.
3. Low cost - about $200.00, less on sale or possibly at gun shows.
4. They are designed for people of smaller stature. (wife, children)
5. They are very reliable with a simple design to maintain.
6. There are lots of accessories for them.
7. Adequate firepower. Better penetration than smaller calibers.
8. Ammo is fairly cheap and is readily available. (for now)
9. It can also somewhat fill the role of the assault rifle due to its magazine size and caliber.
10. It is legal to hunt with using a 5 rnd mag.
11. It is capable of taking deer sized game.

I would suggest for adults 1 ea. SKS's with the standard 10 rnd magazines with a minimum of 1000 rnds stored. Average combat load for the SKS is 180 to 240 rnds with other gear. Why the 10 rnd magazine? Less chance of malfunction than with the larger capacity magazines. I feel that the ones that I have owned were of questionable quality and I would not risk my life with them. If you have children they can be outfitted with an SKS or .22 LR., depending on their stature and age. Say from 6 to 12 years a .22 LR. From 13 up, arm them with an SKS. Give them what they are comfortable with shooting. An alternative to the SKS or .22 LR for kids would be a carbine in 9mm, .45 ACP or .30 carbine. Another possibility would be lever action carbines in .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum. I believe that you can shoot .38 Special in one .44 Special in the other. These cartridges should be manageable by some children.

Next I would look at the M1 Garand from the CMP. (Civilian Marksmanship Program) http://www.civilianmarksmanshipprogram.com/Services/ Their prices are getting higher all the time and are reaching the point where you are almost better purchasing a new one from either Fulton or Springfield Armoryís.
Surplus ammo is still fairly low priced and can be found in the 8 rnd en-bloc clips. 280 rds of .30-06 150-gr. FMJ with ammo can for $49.97. Includes 8 rnd en-bloc clips. http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=259531

The Garand is much heavier than the SKS as is the case with its ammo, so it is primarily a weapon for adults. It also has better penetrating power and will allow you to shoot thru some types of cover. It has a longer range than the SKS also. It is also a better made, if not a little more complex weapon.

The assault rifle is a much debated weapon with many saying it is not necessary and others that it is. If you can afford one and the ammo/magazines/spare parts for it, get one. They are hard to beat for perimeter defense against multiple targets at shorter ranges, up to 100 yards. If you are rushed by 20 hungry PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. intent on looting your home, the Garand and SKS might not be enough firepower.

The AK-47 is a better penetrator than the .223 and shares the same ammo as the SKS. The Mini-14 comes in 2 Military calibers: the .223 and 7.62x39. There is some debate as to whether it will hold up under combat situations but since you are using for defensive purposes this shouldn't be an issue. I hope. The AK-47 is the least expensive of the two rifles.
Some of the common assault rifles are the AR-15 family and other more costly guns such as the Galil, Valmet, Steyr AUG, AR-180 and HK-93. I may have missed some but it doesn't really matter since they are beyond the cost limitations of a basic budget.

Everyone should be taught basic gun handling and marksmanship with the .22 LR to become proficient with a rifle.
.22 LR = no flinching from recoil/muzzle blast as well as low cost practice.
Then move up in caliber to your main rifle.

For the .22 LR, next up would be the tubular magazine feed. The Marlin Glennfield model 60 is one such gun that comes to mind since I am familiar with it (my 1st Gun). I have never had any experience with the Remington Nylon 66/77 but have heard good things of them.

Last would be the best of the .22 LR's, the Ruger 10/22. Make yourself afford it.

The roles of weapons are basically reversed in an urban environment from hunting to home defense.
Letís examine what I consider to be the basic survival arsenal for an urban area. The choices of weapons are quite broad:

Basic (Budget)
1) Shotgun, 12 Gauge
Primary - Home Defense against Intruders
Secondary - Hunting small/large game animals

2) Large Bore Rifle, Legal Hunting Caliber, Semi-Auto
Primary - Sniping/Home defense
Secondary - Hunting large game animals

3) Rifle, .22 LR caliber
Primary - Home defense/Feral Dogs
Secondary - Hunting small game animals

With the exception of the large bore Semi-Auto, the choices for shotgun and .22 LR in the Basic category remain the same as in a rural environment.

Letís look at suitable large bores. First, what do I consider a large bore? Anything .30 caliber or larger in a Rifle cartridge. If you live in an area that is largely urban or suburban and plan on staying there, I would suggest a Semi-Automatic with a magazine of at least 10 rounds. This would be good for self defense during a riot or other civil disorder/natural disaster.

I recommend the SKS once again. It is hard to beat this inexpensive semi-auto without spending lots more money.

Most of the HK's on the market now are actually rebuilt G3's using newly stamped sheet metal receivers. These can be had for a reasonable price. An original HK-91 will set you back a tidy sum though. 20 rnd magazines can be had for as little as $2.00 each in good condition. Stock up.

The Cetme's are also a fair value, but there have been some quality issues with the various receivers available.
They will for the most part accept the HK-91/G3's magazines, having the same heritage.

The Chinese made M1A (Polytech) has one of the best receivers ever made, however the rest of the parts are questionable. Fulton Armory will rebuild these with Original GI parts to a better than new condition.

When I first got into survival the cadillac of all firearms (at the time) was the FN-FAL. If I remember correctly, they were going for about $1200 new then (early 80's). New and rebuilt ones are available but are still expensive. DSA make some nice ones. I wouldn't call these ďbudgetĒ though.

Any of these are suitable for your large bore choice as long as they are dependable.
So why not a Bolt action for urban areas? You may need to use your Large bore for defense against crowds of looters or gangs intent on doing you harm and the greater firepower of a semi-auto with detachable magazines may be needed.

If you are still in the urban environment WTSHTF, you will probably need the firearms in the advanced section just to get out.

Advanced (still Budget)
1) Assault Rifle
Primary - Defense
Secondary - Hunting small/large game animals

2) Carbine
Primary - Defense

3) Combat Shotgun
Primary - Defense

Note: Avoid firefights at all costs. The odds are you or some of your family will die as they are not trained for Urban combat.

The Mini-14 and AK-47 rifles in caliber 7.62x39mm are adequate for both defense and hunting (with the addition of quality optics).

For strictly firepower, the AK-47 can't be beat, followed by the AR-15 family. Dollar wise, you will get more bang for your buck with the AK since it is priced well below the AR-15 family of weapons. You can get ammo, magazines, gear and gun for the price of 1 AR-15. The AR-15 has the edge over the AK in weight and accuracy, as you can carry considerably more .223 than 7.62x39. The quality of manufacture is better also.

In considering carbines, their use is best left to those who are unable to carry heavier weapons and ammo and are not accurate enough with handguns. Some carbines to consider are the Keltec SUB-2000 in 9mm & 40 S&W, Hi-Point Firearms carbines in 9mm & 40 S&W, The Marlin Camp Carbines Models 9 (9mm) and 45 (.45 ACP), the Ruger Police Carbine in 9 mm Luger or .40 S&W and the Beretta Cx4/Px4 Storm in 9mmx 19 and 9mmx21 IMI, 40 S&W and 45 ACP. These range in prices from affordable to expensive and you will get what you pay for in these. There are others out there. If a carbine suits you, look around you'll find what is best for you.

Another choice is the .30 Cal M1 Carbine. Ammo for this rifle is no longer cheap and it is basically a pistol caliber in performance. Many people love it and you may still find it around for a reasonable price. Lots of different capacity magazines are available for it too.

Any other guns are acceptable, as long as you can stock the ammo and spare parts for them. If you are part of Preparedness Group or a Para-Military organization you will want to standardize your choices to maintain compatibility within your group.

So what is a Combat shotgun?
It can be either a Mossberg 500/590 or an Remington 870 with an 18Ē to 20Ē barrel and a 7 or 8 shot magazine. It can have a folding stock as well as a pistol grip front and rear. Most come with a heat shield on the barrel that has Ghost Ring sights. You can deck them out with Sidesaddle ammo holders and under barrel flashlights/laser sights. There is even now a 10 shot drum magazine and 6 shot box magazine available from Knoxx Industries. These are only for the Mossberg line currently.

Another is the Saiga-12 self-loading smooth bore shotgun manufactured by IZHMASH of Russia. It is built on the AK-47 action, comes with 12-ga. smooth bored barrel and the chamber which accepts ammo equipped with shot or slugs including "Magnum" cartridges with 2-3/4" and 3" cartridge case. It is magazine fed. Since I do not have any experience with it yet I find it hard to say it is a good choice, but it is available. Some older military weapons are the Winchester Model 1897 and the Winchester Model 12 as well as the Ithaca Model 37. These are not readily found in the civilian gun market so I will just mention them in passing.

The combat shotgun is good for clearing rooms and hallways of intruders allowing you to get out of a bad situation in a hurry. You can put a lot of hits on multiple targets with this weapon. The biggest drawback to a combat shotgun is the weight of the ammo you must carry to have a fighting chance against adversaries. If you are using a combat shotgun you should have someone backing you up with either an assault rifle or a battle rifle. Even with slugs, these are not a long range weapon.

This is a very personal choice and what works for one may not for another. At the very minimum I would recommend a .22 LR revolver for your emergency pack along with 500 rnds of ammo. Thatís 500 potential meals.
Buy and shoot what you are comfortable with. If you are afraid of the recoil, you will have a hard time hitting what you are shooting at. Before you buy, go to a shooting range that rents handguns and try out several. This is less expensive than buying a .44 mag only to find out you need a .38 special.

Buy at least 15 each 30-rnd for each Assault Rifle, and an extra 5 for replacements. For Battle Rifles, purchase 15 each 20-rnd mags with 6 extra. The Garand uses the 8 rnd clip, so buy 100 each. They are much easier to loose than a standard magazine. Handgun magazines should be 6 to 10 each depending on capacity and price. Mil-Surp battle rifles use stripper clips, and while some ammo comes on it most does not. 240 rounds on 5 round clips is 48 stripper clips.
Purchase an even hundred. The SKS stripper clips hold 10 rounds so 240 rounds would require 24 clips. Since these are still fairly cheap, get a hundred of them also.

Ok, the minimum for the .22 LR is 5000 rnds (about $100)
For the shotgun, 1000 rnds with various loads
For the battle/hunting rifle no less than 2000rnds FMJ and 500 rnds JSP.
Less than this will leave you using the rifle for a club at a later date.
Most of your money spent will be for the hunting and shotgun loads. The .22 LR will be used more than any other gun in foraging small game animals and disposing of pests.

I recommend 10,000 rounds per .22 LR caliber Rifle and 2,500 rounds per .22 LR handgun. This caliber is not reloadable and in a survival scenario it may not be available anywhere except your own stash. Also makes a good barter currency. WARNING: Only barter ammo with those you know and trust as it may be used against you!

For shotguns, I suggest 2500 rounds of various loads; Slugs for hunting and vehicle disabling, Buckshot for Hunting and Combat, #4 & #6 for hunting and home defense. Stockpile more if this is your only/primary weapon.

Assault type rifles can chew up ammo fast, so I recommend of 5000 rounds.
Battle/Hunting Rifles can fall into the same category as above, so plan on 5000 rnds, again with various loads
(lets say 3500rnds FMJ and 1500 various grain JSP)
Bolt Action/Lever Action Rifles should be at least 3000 rnds, but plan on paying a bundle for any non-military caliber that you choose.

Handguns should stock 2000 rnds per gun.

Amounts will vary depending on what you envision coming down the road. Plan for the worst, multiply that by 5 and you may be close.
Store your ammo in ammo cans if it is not stored in some type of container other than cardboard. It makes it easier to transport as well as better protected from environmental conditions.

As always, these are my opinions and are just guidelines for you to help build your own Survival Arsenal. Weapon selection is a choice that must be made with patience and lots of thought. Donít just rush out and buy something based on someone elseís experience. Plan well now, you won't be able to do it WTSHTF and you will live or die with your choice.

#66834 - 06/06/06 12:59 PM Re: rossi for survival?
harrkev Offline

Registered: 09/05/01
Posts: 384
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
Wow MrB. That is quite a good read, and some great recomendations.


I have one STRONG caution.

You mention the SKS with a 10-round magazine. Let me just say that a LOT of the most common SKSs on the market now are from Yugoslavia -- that is what I own. Those have the bayonet and grenade-launcher attached. These are big "no-no's" from a legal standpoint. This SKS is legal because is is a "curio & relic." But, if you modify the rifle, it looses its "C&R" status, and you can get in legal trouble for the "evil" features.

So, the point here is that if you have an SKS, if you change the furniture or change the magazine, you had BETTER remove the bayonet and launcher. The barrel will still be threaded, so you had also better add a muzzle brake and WELD it to the barrel, lest you find yourself in a cell with Bubba.

Note that the SKSs from other countries most likely will not have these features, but the Yugoslavian ones do.

As a side rant, these rules are stupid. If a guy is pointing a rifle at me, would I feel better knowing that he can't stab me with a bayonet as well as shoot me? Probably not. That law makes no sense. A grenade launcher is completely useless since it is impossible to get live grenades for the thing (at least for me). So that part of the law also is really useless. I got the Yugo SKS simply because of it's unbeatable price - $200 for a rifle that had never even been fired.

Also, I have not tried (for the legal reasons), but I hear that detachable magazines are very bad for the reliability of the SKS. So those are not recommended. As far ashunting, I hear that if you put a Lego 2x3 brick in the bottom of the mag, that limits you to five rounds. Problem solved for about $0.05.
Darwin was wrong -- I'm still alive

#66835 - 06/06/06 10:32 PM Re: rossi for survival?
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1158
Loc: Channeled Scablands
"What you choose to fill your arsenal is largely dependent on your whole philosophy of what you are preparing for. Here are some possible scenarios:

1) Pandemic
2) Natural Disasters
3) Economic Instability/Social Breakdown
4) Martial Law/Civilian Disarmament
5) Civil War
6) UN/NWO Takeover
7) World War (Nuclear or Biological) "

Didn't see much mentioned about being stranded or lost in
the wilderness. Seems more geared to fending off the invading

#66836 - 06/06/06 10:36 PM Re: rossi for survival?
Malpaso Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 817
Loc: MA
Good point, and it brings up the age old conundrum:
Do you prepare for all possibilities, and be less than perfectly prepared for any, or do you prepare for the most likely scenario, and be very unprepared for all others?
It's not that life is so short, it's that you're dead for so long.

#66837 - 06/06/06 11:49 PM Re: rossi for survival?
MrB Offline

Registered: 06/06/06
Posts: 2
Loc: WA
It was originally written to answer a question on what a person should buy for an survival arsenal. Once you have bought it, whatever you are carrying at the time is what you are stranded or lost in the wilderness with. Each person's situation is different and no one solution is guarrenteed to work 100% for somebody else. Stranded in the wilderness in Tennesee will require different needs than being stranded in the wilderness of Alaska or Canada.

#66838 - 06/07/06 04:59 AM Re: rossi for survival?
Farmer Offline

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 125
Loc: Mid-Atlantic
MrB - an EXCELLENT post.

I'd like to add a couple of things from my own perspective.

Regardless of whether you choose a single weapon or an entire armory, none of that weaponry is going to be worth a tinker's dam unless you and everyone who will have access to it learn how to use it in all the conditions in which it could be used.

There are thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of people out there who have the money and who buy a good selection of weapons to get them through what may become hard times. A huge percentage of these weapons go into a gun safe and are removed only infrequently to clean or maybe take to the range a couple of times.

What I've chosen to do is to guess about the likelihood of the type of emergency situation that's coming soonest and prepare for that one. As time, training and budget permit I'll then expand the arsenal.

I started with an AR7 and a Springfield M6. Not because they were the absolute best choice, but because they covered a wide variety of potential circumstances and they happened to be available at the times I was able to buy a gun.

Since I purchased those two my circumstances have changed. I now travel 11 states in the Northeast - some of the most heavily populated areas of the country. My take is that the next emergency will be either a natural disaster or another terrorist incident. My concern is not so much the cause of the emergency but rather the civil unrest that will follow. Think about Katrina.

My choice of weapon was thus a 1911 in .45ACP. Why? Not to hunt, but for personal defense. Although I could certainly shoot a pretty big dog with it if I had to and they're not bad eating. I like the fact also that I can (and have) purchase a kit to covert the pistol to a .22 cal for small game and a carbine for larger game. A .45ACP coming out of a 16" barrel is going to be travelling at about 1000fps, and will pack enough wallop to bring a deer down at 50 yards (the practical maximum range for the gun, even though it will shoot much farther).

The key is training. I've been training with the .45 for awhile and will continue all the way through combat training. Once I get to the combat training stage, I'll also be learning about combat rifles and shotguns and will then make a choice as to whether and which I'll buy.

From what I've learned so far, everything mentioned above is correct and valid. I would just recommend a little more strongly that anyone in more densely populated areas obtain a handgun in significant caliber and learn to use it well. And rather than buy a whole bunch of guns and then sit and look at them, buy them one at a time and learn to use them properly.
Knowing where you're going is NOT the same as knowing how to get there.

#181168 - 09/02/09 06:25 PM Re: rossi for survival? [Re: Farmer]
LCranston Offline

Registered: 08/31/09
Posts: 188
Loc: Nebraska

I'm a newbie in this- but looking back at the Rossi...
Youth Matched Pair (each 4-5 pounds)
22/410 (eh) 22/20 gauge
243/20 gauge 22/12 gauge
223/12 gauge 22/ 50 cal
They have both regular powder and black powder

Tri-Barrel 22/243/20 gauge.
about 6 pounds

length taken down ~20 inches

You can get cheap 22 ammo anywhere.
243 can take down a deer.
20 gauge can take down almost anything, depending on the shot size....

I picked up a 243/ 20 gauge on clearance for $89.00 US

Small. Cheap. Reliable. Easy to learn.

#181173 - 09/02/09 07:14 PM Re: rossi for survival? [Re: LCranston]
scafool Offline

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
Welcome LCranston.
Talk about resurrecting an old thread.

Yes the over under in two calibers was a decent pattern for a survival rifle. It gave you the choice of two different loads to match the game and the ranges you were likely to shoot it at.

It was a good enough pattern that the Royal Canadian Air Force used to use it as the Survival rifle for transport planes operating north of 60.

I am not familiar with .243 for range or knockdown myself. It gets good reviews though. It might not be quite all you might want for moose or bear, but it seems to outperform the 5.56 NATO/.223 Remington for long range varmint or dear hunting.

I hope you can find the ammunition easily.

The 20 gauge shotgun ammo should be easy to find and should be good on anything up to the size of a fox, or for birds from dove through partridge to ducks, out to about 50 yards (depending on shot size)
So you have both long and short range covered quite nicely.

Good luck with your new rifle.
Remember to practice with it before you need it.

May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

#181198 - 09/02/09 11:27 PM Re: rossi for survival? [Re: scafool]
Art_in_FL Offline

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
A break action shotgun, either single shot or double barrel, have certain advantages. They are highly reliable, durable, and their large barrels enjoy high recognition as potent weapons. The break action also allows the use of sub-caliber barrel liners which allow you to use smaller calibers of ammunition and to shoot it with more than adequate accuracy.


A 12 gauge break action shotgun with liners in, for example, .22LR and 7.62x39 (AK) would give you a weapon capable of taking on a very wide variety of jobs well.

Shotguns, with their ability to handle a wide variety of shells is, in itself, a jack-of-all-trades. Its weaknesses are that the range is limited to less than 100m with regular shells and to 200m with sabot slugs and rifling. Also the shells are both expensive and bulky. There are also issues with recoil and blast. A 12 gauge with a full power shell can be difficult for an untrained person with small frames to handle and even experienced people can have issues if the weapon is fired in constrained or confined spaces. Shooting a powerful shotgun shell while standing beside a concrete wall can be relatively painful, jarring and distracting if your not accustomed to the blast.

Most of these issues are mitigated to some extent by using sub-caliber barrel liners. A .22LR liner gives you the option to shoot the most common, least expensive, lightest ammunition available. The 7.62x39 barrel liner, or other roughly 30 caliber center fire rounds, gives you the ability to shoot at longer ranges, out to 400m, and gives you a round for deer-sized animals that is smaller, lighter and cheaper than most 12 gauge rounds and one that is less punishing in recoil and blast.

I personally favor the double barrel in 12 gauge. It gives you a shot and a follow-up. Should the firing mechanism fail for one barrel, an unlikely event given the simplicity and robust nature of the mechanism, you can shoot the other barrel.

Another option, a bit less expensive and more compact, but usually with less velocity and accurate, would be to use chamber adapters:


Less capable perhaps than the longer barrel liners they nonetheless offer the ability to effectively fire a wide variety of shells with slightly lesser effect. This might allow you to more omnivorously graze the available ammunition supply and take advantage of less expensive, common or found ammunition.

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