So while not totally related to ETS, I can't help but seek the advice of others on the forum. For those who do not know what a double cylinder deadbolt lock is, it is a deadbolt that is keyed on both sides. You need a key on the inside as well as the outside of the door.

I'm getting a new place, a house in a "quiet" residential area. The kind with a front & back yard and neighbors next door. The front door is solid core, but is has a tempered window on the side that runs the full length of the door. These are very common.

From a security aspect, you should have a double cylinder deadbolt lock on any door within reaching distance of a window so the door cannot be unlocked by someone breaking the window. From a fire safety standpoint and having small children in the home, it poses a fire hazard of (anyone, particularly children) not being able to get out of the house through that door if there was a fire.

Are you for or against having a double cylinder deadbolt lock on your front door? What other factors do you consider? I've thought about what poses a greater risk, burglar or fire, and that is a tough one to answer. The area is good, crime rate is low, and I always lock the doors and windows. I also don't create fire hazards and keep things like the furnace and things well maintained & clean as well as keep fire extinguishers on each level of the home as well as kitchen, and garage.

So, your thoughts???

I've had a double cylinder in the past and just left my keys in the inside cylinder while I was home. Always knew where my keys were and didn't have an issue with fire.

Having been a licensed general contractor and custom home builder for 9 years, I can tell you they are against the building codes of every city and county I have built in.

I am not fond of them simply because there is the chance of being locked in during a fire.

Look to a security system with glass breakage sensors if you are that concerned about someone gaining entry thru the means you have listed.

Personally, I think if you have glass in or adjacent to your door they are a good idea. I'd also suggest you research 'lock bumping' and try to get locks that are resistant to this method.

I changed out our locks with Bilock cylinders.

As for fire, there are a number of options. You can keep a dish with a key near the door, but not so near that someone can reach in and nab it. You can keep one around your neck.

Personally, I think the key in the lock defeats the purpose.

I don't really care if someone breaks in while I'm gone and steals my stuff. Houses are not fortresses -- they will get in. What I do care about is if someone breaks in while I'm home. I want those few extra seconds to react. This is why lock bumping is so dangerous IMO -- it is fast AND quiet.

If someone breaks in while I'm home, I want to hear it and to have a few seconds to react. This is why when I replaced the windows I selected laminated glass for the downstairs windows. I want someone to work for it and to make some noise.

BTW, keep in mind regarding emergency escape, the windows are still an option. You can open them and leave that way too.

-john

I'm with Desperado on this - our city code is against double cylinder locks, but lo, there's one on our back door, probably installed by an earlier homeowner or pre-code. We keep the key in it 24/7/365. A door lock - any door lock - only provides $25-100 of security, or at most 30 seconds of time until someone gains entry. You are better off locking up your valuables with a much better level of security than your door locks can afford you. Personal protection - there are options there too, including alarm systems. On the other hand a double cylinder without a key in it can prevent egress of my wife or kids in the event of a fire, human loss = priceless. I know which side of the equation I come down on.

another thing you can check into in having the glass replaced with Lexan if the crook is determined to get thru that they are getting in anyway.
If you are handy with repairs and have the tools you could do it yourself

It really depends on a lot of factors. How many people live in the house, what is the layout like, how secure is the rest of the house, how close are the neighbors, etc. I would consider it only if I lived alone and the front door lock was the weakest point of entry in the house (which in most homes it isn't). If there are other people in the house, especially kids, the key will likely be left in the lock making it no more secure than a regular deadbolt, or the key will get misplaced causing more of an inconvienece than anything else. There is also the fire aspect to worry about, but unless that door is the only exit and there are no other escape routes nearby it isn't a huge concern for me.

I don't know how much security it would add to a normal house. Tempered glass is a lot harder to break than people think, and I suspect most burgalars would choose an easier and less exposed point of entry than the front door. Do you have any ground level windows? A back patio door? Are the door frames reinforced? All it would take is a swift kick to the door to break the door jamb, which would be a lot quicker than breaking the door window. If it were a back door that was out of sight from the neighbors and there were no other vulnerable entry points nearby I might consider it.

I installed the Double Cylinder Deadbolts on all of the exterior doors at my house.
However, the approach that I take is to leave the keys in the lock at all times... except for when we are going to be out of town for a few days. If we're to be out of town for a while, we remove the keys, and then we put them back as soon as we return home.
I just can't take the chance of my family being trapped by the locks, in the event of a fire or other emergency.

Besides, around here, burglars usually just kick in the door instead of fooling with the locks anyway.

Also, I don't like the idea of keeping the key "somewhere near" the lock. Thick smoke, dark, panic, or other factors might disorient you, and prevent you from finding that key when it really counts.

On the one door in my house that does have glass in it, I have a double cylinder lock. The key is kept near it, but not close enough to be grabbed should someone break the glass and reach in.

I don't have kids so I don't have to worry about them. Frankly, my escape plan in the event of a fire is a window. My one story house is not tall enough to break anything from jumping from a window.

But I do agree the best locks/doors will not stop a determined thief. At best you slow them down and make it too much of a pain in the butt to get into your house, so they move on to the next one.

That is more upgrade than I am looking for, but I'm sure works well. I agree with your thought process though. It is very close to mine. I don't mind if the intruder gets caught though.

My previous home had "Grade II w/ grade I features" Schlage deadbolts on exterior doors, and the keys were stamped 'Do Not Duplicate'. That does next to nothing, but it will probably stop the babysitter. Charlie bar on the sliding door, pins on all windows, locking grates on basement windows, perimeter motion lighting as well as timed lighting in and out. I always do a perimeter check before bed to 'fix' what others left undone. Getting the whole family on board takes time. Especially for the youngest. The perimeter was well visible so there were no hiding places. I also had an custom alarm system and firepower to handle intruders. I won't mention everything, but I'm comfortable with the level of security I will put into the place. I've just never been one to make up my mind on the deadbolt question.

Additional detail on the new place: The storm door already has a double cylinder deadbolt. The house does not. I'm deciding if either or both should have one at all.

I recently dealt with this myself. We talked to our contractor about adding double cylinder locks to some doors. We have some french doors, and the manufacturer didn't want to talk about adding a second cylinder, to lock them from the inside.

We have added some simple barrel bolts to one door, the least secure one.

No matter how many and how good your locks are, you cannot keep someone who is determined from getting in. You can only slow them down. I think the best contributor to the security of our home is our neighborhood. Some of that is from the homeowners' association and paid for, but a lot of it is the neighbors watching out for each other.

If you have layers of security then defeating each layer takes time and effort, all of which gives you time to respond or get assistance in doing so.

In all honesty, if I was worried about it, I would just replace the door with one more suitable (and probably the frame), as well as replace or re-key all the locks in the place.

That takes care of the door and it takes care of any former owners or neighbors still having a key to your place.

Another option would be to replace the glass with something resistant to breaking/shattering (i.e. polycarbonate/lexan). The only thing to keep in mind with it, is that it scratches much easier than glass and it breaks down over time when exposed to UV light. Therefore, you'll probably end up replacing it every few years. I'd still have the locks re-keyed/replaced though, for the same reason mentioned above.

By storm door, you mean an outer door over your main door?

If so, would probably not bother with a lock at all on the storm door (assuming it is glass?) and only deal with the primary door (assume it is more sturdy than the storm door).

In this, I agree you can make it too complicated and hamper egress.

-john

Agreed, although in our case, it is going to be a lot harder going than they might realize. 1 3/4" solid oak plus two reinforced deadbolts plus the latch (probably hard to hold the latch while they kick).



30 seconds could be a REAL long time when someone is trying to break into your home with the aim of doing you harm.

-john

I know that captive key deadbolts are offered as a solution to this dichotomy. Captive key deadbolts are a hybrid of single- and double-cylinder deadbolts, where the inside thumbturn is removable when the deadbolt is unlocked.

While you are at home, you leave the thumbturn in the lock for fire escape purposes. When you leave the home, you unlock the deadbolt, remove the thumbturn from the lock, then lock the deadbolt again from the outside.

As far as any door only providing 30 seconds of security, that isn't the case either.

There have been times when the fire department has been called to some of our commercial buildings. They've tried and failed to get through some of our rear man-doors using Halligan bars (basically big crow bars) and sledgehammers. After that, they usually resort to cutting the door with a gas powered cut-off saw.

Do they eventually get through? Sure. How long does it take? I'm not sure as they always get there before I do and when I do get there I open the door with the key if they still haven't gotten through yet, but it's at least a few minutes and it requires making a lot of noise. Both of which fit into my expectations of what a simple, but security rated, entry way should do.

Fact is, houses are typically some of the least secure buildings out there. Just a little security, properly installed, can go a long way to slowing someone down or making your house/apartment less appealing than your neighbors.

What are pins for windows? I'd like to keep ours open at night about 3 or 4 inches with our attic fan on, but can't figure out how to secure them.

Blast can tell you how to get through just about any door in a few seconds

But it'd be more fun to show you.

Sidenote: we have double cylinder deadbolts on all our doors with keys hanging out of reach from the window. We felt the extra protection they give outweighs the chance of our kids being trapped in the house.

-Blast

Window locking pins can be almost anything. I drilled a small through the window frame, main window casing and fixed window casing. Then I just stuck a nail through it. It prevents the window from moving at all. I preferred my method with nails because it is cheap but very effective. You cannot lift the window out of its track while open.

You can buy ones with a sliding latch that screw into place on the window sill. If the latch is a bolt that slides into a hole you drill into the window casing, you could have several positions (closed & 2-3" open) it could lock into place. Some also have keyed locking pins.

Keep the placement of the locking pin at the back of the window opening. And don't allow the window to open too much. Just because you may not be able to reach though the opening or have long enough arms to reach the pin from the outside, it doesn't mean someone else won't. There are some long skinny armed folks out there. Anyway, be conservative on how open you place your open pinned position.

That's something that I really need to upgrade to, some nice solid wood doors.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned by anyone in this thread, is to not neglect the "hinge side" of the door. One of my neighbors' house was broken into recently, through the door at the side of their garage. The builders used a common pre-hung door, and when the burglar kicked it in, not only did the wood break out around the lock, but 2 of the hinges also sheared out of the door frame.
So, I guess it would be a great idea to pull out all those short screws that hold the hinges in the pre-fab door; and put in some long/heavy screws that will reach into the structural framing around the door.
Otherwise, if you've taken steps to reinforce the deadbolt/lock side of the door, it might literally "fly off the hinges" instead.

I've heard that it is recommended to replace at least one 3 1/2" screw at each hinge into the framing on the hinge side. I figured that two per hinge would work better! I added some 1 1/2 screws into the door as well (replace those 3/4" ones).

Most of the doors used in homes today are not very strong. There are some exceptions but you would generally have to either put those in yourself or spec them during construction if you use a contractor. Most of the "cookie cutter" homes won't have that good a quality door. Some commercial doors with steel frames would be good but probably difficult to get installed.

There are some great videos on the web that show you how to enter a building (firefighter forced entrance), that sort of make you wonder if it is possible to make your house really secure? Guess the plan is to make it harder for the lazy criminals so they leave your house and go next door!

Yah, we retrofitted our place with the solid doors. With the heavy oak door, it came with pretty beefy hinges, but as noted, you need to make sure you are using extra long screws screw securely into the frame.

That said, you also have to be realistic about how effective those long screws are. Even with the fairly beefy door and long screws, someone can beat their way through -- the screws will get pulled out of the softer wood used for framing, or will simply break out.

But someone is going to have to come with appropriate tools and make some noise and work for it.

-john

You guys lock your doors?!?

You guys got doors???

If the BG broke in through a window or a back door wouldn't a double cylinder lock pose the risk of trapping the BG inside the house if you surprised them too?
I would rather they ran out the front door than have a violent confrontation.

p.s. It is quieter to just kick most doors in than it is to smash the window out. People seem to hear glass breaking more than wood breaking.

In all honesty, I don't really see that happening. First, if I walk into my house and it looks tossed, I see someone in there, or something just feels amiss (biggest one would be the dog not coming to greet me), I'm turning right back around and running to my car and/or to a neighbors house, where I can safely call the police to come clear the place.

It's the same thing if I catch someone in the house unknowingly (say in an upstairs room), I'm turning right back around and heading to the nearest reasonably safe place. Be it back outside, or a room I can barricade myself in, call the police, and possibly arm myself.

Either way, it doesn't really matter what kind of locks I've got on my front door. (Unless I'm the one being trapped inside, but that's the same as the fire scenario.)

On the opposite side of things, most burglars you find act either one of two ways when discovered. They're just want to get out as fast as possible and want nothing to do with you unless you get in their way. Or, their motive changes (say from burglary to robbery) and they've already made up their mind to come after you. Again, either way it doesn't really matter what kind of lock you've got on your front door. The first guy is going to find a way out any way he can, as fast as he can. The second guy is going to come after you regardless.

A few years ago the shed behind our house was broken into so I started looking at the security of our house. I bought a new steel front door and took the steel front door that was there and moved it to the back of the garage to replace the old wooden door. I had to widen the frame so while I was in there I replaced the door hinge screws with bolts and nuts through the two 2x4's framing the opening then 3" screws holding the door frame to the 2x4's. On the deadbolt side I drilled a hole through the two 2x4's and the next stud over and drove a length of pipe in so the deadbolt went into the pipe rather than just a small striker plate on the door frame. If someone kicked that door they would break their leg before it went down. I then locked up and chained down all my tool boxes in the garage so if someone still broke in that back door they didn't have easy access to tools that could be used to get into the rest of the house.

That's one nice aspect of the wireless sensors for alarm systems. It's just as easy to monitor an outbuilding as anything else. Provided that it's not too far away.

Audible alarms on entry points. A panic button in the bedroom near your bed is nice to have. And a short response from local police. 99.9% of would be burglars will turn tail the moment the siren starts going off. Oh, also be sure to put a nice "Washington Alarm" sticker on some doors and windows so maybe they'll see it, and reconsider boosting your house in the first place. I know one guy who put a Smith & Wesson decal on his, although I'm a little troubled by the implication, and its an advertisement that you have valuable weapons within. Talking to my wife, there are meth heads who will take a chance of breaking and entering to get resaleable guns, and its usually not too hard to figure out when someone isn't home. Audible alarms...

Thanks!

interesting discussion but i would have to side with those who are against having such a lock for the reasons mentioned

I am biased since my dad sold locks for 25+ years.

Double cylinder all the way.

Getting out in an emergency? Smash the window near the door. After all, that is why you had to put in the DC.

An emergency key can be taped to the top of the door frame.

An added bonus, it slows down the bad guys from carting your stuff out the door. All the while the alarm is screaming.

Security is all about layers.

Although not if the key is taped to the door.

It is a good point, though. I live alone so I'm much less bothered by escape issues. I keep an emergency key in a safe (that has a combination lock).

From what I've read, burglars will enter a house any way they can, including squeezing through narrow windows, or past broken glass (slowly and carefully so as to avoid leaving blood, which would be DNA evidence). Once in, the first thing they do is look for a way out. When they leave they may be in extreme hurry, or carrying stuff, so what they used as a way in may not be suitable as a way out. Having doors that don't need keys from the inside, or leaving keys on obvious hooks, makes life easier for them.

That said, I don't know how significant this is. I've not come across police reports of burglars giving up, or taking less stuff, because they couldn't get the door open to leave.

Odd that this subject is still alive given what just happened at my residence over the weekend.

We were out of town for DW's grandfather's funeral. Seems the young man previously referred to as son#2 came by to visit (read steal), as he got wind we were out of town.

Well, he got in thru the dog door on back of the house, and was then greeted by both German Shepherds. Once the miscreant let his accomplice in the front, the GSD's the began disassembling him in the doorway. Neighbor across the street called the police and all were provided at least one nights free accommodations thanks to the local taxpayers.

I will be grilling steak for the dogs tonight..... The humans get hamburgers.

As far as double sided deadbolt cylinders go I think you are spot on with your analysis. This article has a bunch of technical information that might inform you: URL removed by chaosmagnet

But if you are looking for an emotional appeal I would say that this is a bad idea. When you are locking a double sided deadbolt you have turned that door into a wall. If you are leaving that deadbolt open then what is the point of having it? Any door with a double cylinder is not an exit. If you can compensate your family's emergency plan to allow for safe egress in some other part of the home than I don't see a problem (other than making the children very aware that that is not a door they can use.

When I was younger (around seven years old) a friend and neighbor (same age) died in a fire. His body was found at their back door. That door had a double cylinder. They had apparently kept a spare key somewhere in the area around the door. In the confusion he could not find it and it cost him his life. This tragedy I think is preventable, but it is tricky. Where ever the fire is will determine what way you can go (if it is some other emergency that will also determine the way you can exit. With something like a front door it seems way too risky.

What I would suggest is a security door. I have a metal screen door. There is no window access to my locks, but if there was, unlocking one door would do a criminal little good. They would have to not only unlock it but then pull it open from outside. Then they would have to manipulate several other locks on another door. Security doors also allow you to keep a door open for air when you are awake and at home (gets a nice breeze).

Read that article and inform yourself, but I think a security door will be your best option. Also children can get use to opening all of those locks very quickly (normal door and security door) because they are using those doors every day. Be smart and be safe.