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#164972 - 01/25/09 06:56 PM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: Tom_L]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1143
Loc: Channeled Scablands

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#164978 - 01/25/09 08:00 PM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: Tom_L]
2005RedTJ Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 475
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama
Originally Posted By: Tom_L
In contrast, today you can at least dial 911 and expect some assistance. Instead of going after a bunch of hardcore bad guys myself I much prefer having a SWAT team in town. They're pros and can do the job much better than me and my neighbors...

That is, unless they can get sufficiently organized themselves to form a standing armed/police force. In which case the civilian population will not really need weapons any longer. smile


So, we should all just dial 911 on the phone and then cower in the corner until the good guys show up to save the day? The reality of that situation is that all too often, the police arrive just in time to clean up the aftermath. My own brother, as well as several friends of mine, are current or former police officers and that is straight from them.

The police may or may not make it there in time to stop someone from harming myself or my family. The alarm system may or may not function properly. But, I will do everything in my power to see that myself and my family survive the ordeal.

Your reasoning that having police meaning the civilian population no longer needs guns is flawed. If you have a fire department, does that mean you shouldn't have smoke detectors or a fire extinguisher in your residence or business? There are plenty of highly-trained doctors and paramedics, does that mean you should not carry a first aid kit in your vehicle?

The thought that the big, warm, fuzzy government will come bail us all out of whatever ails us without us having to lift a finger is a sad part of the downfall of modern society. I'd expect a forum about preparedness to be the last place I'd hear someone say that we should just wait until the good guys show up to help us.

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#164980 - 01/25/09 08:22 PM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: quick_joey_small]
Brangdon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 1201
Loc: Nottingham, UK
Originally Posted By: quickjoeysmall
But aren't you agreeing that gun bans don't control the amount of shootings, when you say it depends on the ease of importing?
Yes; I don't think the Dunblane gun controls achieved anything positive. I certainly don't advocate banning guns in America. Even if it had helped here it probably wouldn't help there.

Originally Posted By: Desperado
Guess that blows the whole no knife crime idea out of the water.
It was just a straw doll, wasn't it? You aren't arguing against a position anyone here has taken.

That said, I do think that knife crime is a lesser evil than gun crime. I don't think Hamilton would have been able to kill 16 children if he'd only been armed with knives. Recent reports show an increase in knife crime and a decrease in gun crime, and if that reflects criminals switching from guns to knives it's surely a good thing.


Edited by Brangdon (01/25/09 08:38 PM)
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#165034 - 01/26/09 10:32 AM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: 2005RedTJ]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Originally Posted By: 2005RedTJ
Originally Posted By: Tom_L
In contrast, today you can at least dial 911 and expect some assistance. Instead of going after a bunch of hardcore bad guys myself I much prefer having a SWAT team in town. They're pros and can do the job much better than me and my neighbors...

That is, unless they can get sufficiently organized themselves to form a standing armed/police force. In which case the civilian population will not really need weapons any longer. smile


So, we should all just dial 911 on the phone and then cower in the corner until the good guys show up to save the day? The reality of that situation is that all too often, the police arrive just in time to clean up the aftermath. My own brother, as well as several friends of mine, are current or former police officers and that is straight from them.

The police may or may not make it there in time to stop someone from harming myself or my family. The alarm system may or may not function properly. But, I will do everything in my power to see that myself and my family survive the ordeal.

Your reasoning that having police meaning the civilian population no longer needs guns is flawed. If you have a fire department, does that mean you shouldn't have smoke detectors or a fire extinguisher in your residence or business? There are plenty of highly-trained doctors and paramedics, does that mean you should not carry a first aid kit in your vehicle?

The thought that the big, warm, fuzzy government will come bail us all out of whatever ails us without us having to lift a finger is a sad part of the downfall of modern society. I'd expect a forum about preparedness to be the last place I'd hear someone say that we should just wait until the good guys show up to help us.


I'm afraid you missed my point. I very much support the idea that any sane, responsible, law-abiding citizen should be allowed to own firearms. But the idea that violent crime just won't happen in a community where everybody is armed is nonsense.

How many people do actually have the skills to protect themselves against bad guys? I know a bunch of civilians who own guns. IMHO, very few of them could actually handle themselves in any kind of confrontation. Whether it was bare hands, knife or firearm. Very few people have what it takes to use a weapon under stress. But very many people feel a sense of false security and power when they have a gun at hand. That's exactly the kind of stuff that's bad in a confrontation.

I find it a little funny how people look at some incident and say, well, it couldn't have happened if there was an armed bystander around. That's just ridiculous. Look at what happened in Belgium. Do you seriously think the staff could have stopped the psycho from stabbing those people if they had guns? I don't think the typical nurse has the training to deploy a gun and incapacitate a knife-wielding attacker at close quarters. I bet the staff didn't even realize what was going on at the time or were just too shocked to do anything. Whether you have a gun is immaterial if you're wetting your pants. If there really happened to be someone at the scene who had the guts to prevent least some of the victims from getting hurt, he would've done it anyway, gun or no gun. It's all about the attitude and mental toughness. In a situation like that you have basically no time to respond. If you have what it takes, you'll grab a chair and smash the weirdo's skull, kick him in the groin and stomp the holy crap out of him, whatever. But again, there are very few folks who can do that in reality. And for the rest it doesn't really matter whether they're armed or not because the mental component isn't there.

You have to be real - bad stuff tends to happen all of a sudden when you least expect it. And often times the last thing you want in a situation like that is some gun-toting vigilante spraying lead all over the place. A firefighter friend of mine has told me how people sometimes put themselves in danger because they don't realize their own limitations. They see a fire and try to put it out on their own. Before they know it the situation gets totally out of control. Then when the firefighters arrive they have to rescue that person first, which in turn puts yet more people in danger.

I realize full well that life is a crapshoot and that everybody should take care of their own safety as much as possible. The police can't be there all the time. But at least they're equipped, prepared and competent to handle that kind of work. Whereas 99% of the general population are not, whether they own guns or not. That's why owning weapons doesn't make anybody safer per se. Guns sure as hell didn't make the Wild West a safe place no more that some African village where everybody and their grandma is toting an AK.

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#165035 - 01/26/09 11:12 AM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: Tom_L]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2840
I think your missing the point more. Bad things can happen anywhere but less bad things happen when there are armed people around because now the bad guys are more likely to face even odds. Look at the statistics from cities like Washington DC or Chicago IL where you have very strict gun laws so there are high rate of crimes because there is less chance of being stopped. Criminals pick on the weak so when people are weakened by lawsthey make for easier targets. Looks at places where everyones grandma does tote an AK, crime is low there because criminals are going to be less likely to mug/rop/rape grandma.
The wild wild west didn't get its name because everyone was running around shooting everyone else, back then you typically carried a single shot or an early revolver and carried only a handful of bullets and those were more for getting your dinner rather than fighting bcause you couldn't drive down to the corner store to get more bullets you had to be very careful with how many you used.


Edited by Eugene (01/26/09 11:19 AM)

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#165038 - 01/26/09 11:34 AM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: Eugene]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Now is that a fact?

Quote:
Looks at places where everyones grandma does tote an AK, crime is low there because criminals are going to be less likely to mug/rop/rape grandma.


When was the last time you've been to wild Africa?

Grandma keeps her AK by the fireplace. What does she do when a gang of teenagers stoned out of their mind raid the village (they have AK's too and can probably shoot a bit better)? The answer is, she doesn't just get mugged - she gets robbed, raped and killed. Well, maybe they just cut her hand off with a machete and rape her daughter instead.

Another great example of a "polite" armed society - the Balkans in the 90's. Now everybody over there was armed to the teeth. But you're right, they didn't have that much crime as we understand it. They had genocide.

Now I'm outta here before it gets too political. Stay safe! wink

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#165055 - 01/26/09 03:17 PM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: Tom_L]
oldsoldier Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 742
Loc: MA
Think back to 9/11....these people highjacked FOUR planes FULL of people using only boxcutters. Only a handful fought back on ONE plane (that we are aware of). People, when confronted with a foriegn situation, often dont react at all..because they down know how to. I think that, given those situations again, even with 6 highjackers, I would start rallying people REAL fast...someone WILL get hurt, possibly killed; however, that is a risk you may have to take. People value their own lives too much though, and not enough of others. Sure, they say it AFTER the fact, but, and there have been several experiments regarding this, including some that have been TV shows; people, at least here in America, would choose not to get involved, rather than getting hurt. Sadly, our culture has slowly turned from one of exploration and risk taking to one of passivity. As bad as our current economy is, and will be in the near future, this may serve as a wake up call to us; one that will bring back our sense of self worth, and pride in our country, and ourselves.
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#165059 - 01/26/09 03:47 PM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: Tom_L]
snoman Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/02
Posts: 181
Originally Posted By: Tom_L
That's why owning weapons doesn't make anybody safer per se. Guns sure as hell didn't make the Wild West a safe place no more that some African village where everybody and their grandma is toting an AK.

I don't agree with that in the slightest. Possessing arms gives you a means with which to defend both yourself and others. That's why the police carry them. Granted, carrying arms comes with no guarantees though a defensive sidearm, with the proper mindset and training certainly does increase your chances in an 'unpleasant situation.' Without them, all you can do is hide and hope you don't become another victim.

Originally Posted By: Tom_L
How many people do actually have the skills to protect themselves against bad guys?

How many people have the skill to drive an automobile? (I think that answer is obvious). Does that means no one should drive? You are, in this activity or in any other, as skilled as you choose to be.

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#165068 - 01/26/09 04:25 PM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: Tom_L]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1143
Loc: Channeled Scablands
self deleted


Edited by clearwater (01/28/09 01:50 PM)

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#165074 - 01/26/09 04:43 PM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: Tom_L]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5265
Loc: SOCAL
She'd have been "robbed, raped and killed" regardless. At least with her own AK she has half a chance at surviving the encounter. Unarmed she is pure victim; with a good firearm she may remove a lot of incentive for pressing the attack.
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