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#164878 - 01/24/09 11:42 PM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: scafool]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1105
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: scafool


Uhuh, and a new rifle in 1780 would have cost more than 2 English Pounds. (Dollars were not current yet.)
That was way more than most people made in a month back then.
I can buy a new rifle today for less than a 2 day's wages

By 1870 mass production had lowered the prices, but repeating rifles were still extremely expensive compared to how much the would cost in labor now.

Arguing prices based on commodities like gold is not very good. Metals fluctuate a lot in value.
Gold was cheap enough at one point that they actually used it as currency.



1780? Did you forget the minute men? Everyone had some sort
of weapon in their home. Probably not a Brown Bess, most likely swords and such then.
Course in Briton the banning of such being owned by the common
folk and the abuses they suffered because they couldn't
defend themselves, is likely what led to the USA's 2nd amendment.

You could buy a new rifle at sears at the turn of the last
century for a $5 gold piece. That $5 gold piece would buy you
a rifle today too. Probably 5 days wages for a manual laborer.

Many states have long had
homesteading laws that allow you to keep at least one firearm after bankruptcy, it was considered so important.

My Grandad sent lever action rifles and ammo to Britain in WW2
so citizens could defend themselves after being disarmed in the previous years. A mechanic, he was by no means rich.

Violent crime rates appear to me to follow economic trends.
Less desperation, less crime.





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#164882 - 01/25/09 12:18 AM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: ironraven]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
Originally Posted By: ironraven
Originally Posted By: scafool
(I mean besides responding with completely uncontrolled and heavily armed paranoia)


OK, I know I'm about to get a mouthful of something nasty, but I'll bite....

Based on your statement, you make the assumption that anyone who carries is (a) paranoid, (b) not in control of themselves, and (c) heavily armed. I'll take exception to all of the above. This isn't about politics. This is about mindset. One path leads ultimately to becoming a serf or a refugee. The other... is my path.

Paranoia is a specific psychological condition, and while I know it is not your intent to slander with this term, it is insulting. To the average person who can't be bothered to have 72 hours of supplies on hand, those of us who have 120 hours, or 240 hours, or just a month's worth of supplies are "paranoid". If believing that someone other than your self is ultimately responsible for your safety is paranoid, then I'm not sure why you are here. I'm not being nasty, but I have to ask that. It doesn't matter if we are talking getting lost in the woods, deciding to leave before a hurricane, or getting taken out by a meth head who wants the five bucks in cash you are carrying- all of those are real situations, and if not avoidable, failing to prepare for how to counter them is at best shortsighted, and more likely just ingorance in action.

By saying people who chose to be armed are not in control of their actions is very insulting, and shows you don't know much about people who practice any form of martial art, be it armed or unarmed hand to hand, bows, or firearms. To use any of them effectively, you need to be in control of yourself. The only way to beat discipline is luck.

Or perhaps you are thinking not so much of a random beserker, but of someone who flaunts laws. I have no respect for that type of person. My employer has a no weapons policy. Our parking area is not the most secure location. As a result, I choose not to carry anything heavier than a Swiss Army knife at or to work. It is not desirably, but it is the way things are. When my vehicle was down, I added a small can of pepper spray which stayed in my pack during the day, and that was it. When I used to carry regularly, I would not carry in a bar; when I used to drink regularly, I didn't carry period. I ask you if that is the action of a random beserker who is not in control of his actions?

As for heavily armed, I'm sorry, but that is a silly term. To a person with bare hands, someone with a rock is armed. Two rocks (one for throwing, one for smashing) in heavily armed when all you have is ten fingers.

Now, you do talk about avoidance. So we don't go out at night. We let the park become a dealing ground and crack house, and keep the kids out of it. Those of us who's socioeconomic situation gives them the luxury of avoiding bad parts of town do so, and if you can't, sucks to be you. Avoidance and situational awareness prevent walking into ambushes. But they can also make you a target. A "crazy" can see it two ways- as a threat to his status, or a sign telling the world you are prey. The really crazy, you can't avoid them if they want to play with you.

Sorry, I'd rather accept responsibility for myself, and be able to assist those around me. If that makes me paranoid in your eyes, then allow me to counter with this. It makes me a free man in my eyes, and the master of my own destiny. I have options other than running away or begging on my knees, just like I have options other than freezing to death or waiting on my roof for the helos to come. Sure, those options are open to me if they are the best ones, but I can now chose. Only small children, subjects and slaves have to rely on someone else to take care of them, and all are at the mercy of that "protector".


Read my comments again without putting any words in my mouth.
Then instead of getting all bug eyed think about what I actually said.

In most cases being armed would not have helped the victims, and having a gun in your pocket would only have given you a heavy pocket.
If somebody with a knife in their hand is within 20 feet of you and wants you dead, a gun in a holster is not fast enough to matter.
Even if you have your gun out you likely won't get on target and fire before they are cutting you into pieces.
You would need to have it out, aimed and safety off before they took a single step your way.
(and in that case you should be yelling at them very loudly to drop the knife and lie on their belly or you will shoot them, and shoot them if they don't do just that)

Having a pistol handy certainly would not have helped anybody hit by the Texas Tower Sniper.
He was able to keep selecting targets and firing at them with a high powered telescopic sighted rifle for over an hour and a half from the top of that tower.
(he was the first of the real mass murder shooters by the way)

As for cleaning up druggie parks.
There are ways to do that. It takes community involvement and police assistance.
The Charles Bronson Big Gun fantasy simply wouldn't work.
It might make for an exciting movie, but in reality it would just get you shot.

And about the word paranoid. Yes it is a psychological term and I wish people would look it up.
paranoia


_________________________
May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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#164887 - 01/25/09 12:54 AM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: scafool]
2005RedTJ Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 475
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama
Originally Posted By: scafool
Originally Posted By: 2005RedTJ
...Look at the crime statistics from the US from years ago. In an era where everyone was armed, crime levels were amazingly low....


I am sorry Red, but I have to burst that bubble.
The "Good Old Days" are just another escapist fantasy.


So, when my Grandfather and every old person I've ever met tell me that they used to be able to leave their doors unlocked when they left the house or went to bed, they're full of it?

When they tell me a lot of places around here you used to be able to walk down the streets after dark and not fear for your life, they're lying to me?

I deal in actual crimes at my work, the resulting situation of people having an alarm system installed after the crime has happened. I see people who've had home invasions, armed robberies, break-ins, and worse. So, all those people are lying too? Crime statistics don't lie. The trend may be slightly downward since 1990 or so, but I'm talking about the long-term.

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#164896 - 01/25/09 01:57 AM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: 2005RedTJ]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
Pretty much I would say they had the same problems.
I still know places where people don't lock doors, but those are very small communities.
It is pretty weird the first time you wake up and smell coffee because the three neighbors you are going hunting with came over to wake you up and put a pot of coffee on for you.

I bet if you check most of New York city lived under lock and key even if you go back to the early 1800s

Does this look like a picture of the "Good Old Days?"

Dead Rabbits Gang 1857
_________________________
May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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#164907 - 01/25/09 02:57 AM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: scafool]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1105
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: scafool


Having a pistol handy certainly would not have helped anybody hit by the Texas Tower Sniper.
He was able to keep selecting targets and firing at them with a high powered telescopic sighted rifle for over an hour and a half from the top of that tower.
(he was the first of the real mass murder shooters by the way)



"Once Whitman began facing return gunfire from the authorities and civilians who had brought out their personal firearms to assist police, he used the waterspouts on each side of the tower as gun ports, allowing him to continue shooting largely protected from the gunfire below but also greatly limiting his range of targets. Ramiro Martinez, an officer who confronted Whitman, later stated in his book that the civilian shooters should be credited, as they made it difficult for Whitman to take careful aim without being hit."

http://www.morganprinting.org/PortRangerRay.html

Civilian 22 rifles--

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#164908 - 01/25/09 03:09 AM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: clearwater]
Chris Kavanaugh Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
4 pages of predictable posts and an escalation from knives to firearms. So, I must ask? How many people are aware of Doug's other effort for knife rights? it's on the homepage.


Edited by Chris Kavanaugh (01/25/09 03:10 AM)

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#164918 - 01/25/09 03:54 AM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: clearwater]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
Originally Posted By: clearwater


"Once Whitman began facing return gunfire from the authorities and civilians who had brought out their personal firearms to assist police, he used the waterspouts on each side of the tower as gun ports, allowing him to continue shooting largely protected from the gunfire below but also greatly limiting his range of targets. Ramiro Martinez, an officer who confronted Whitman, later stated in his book that the civilian shooters should be credited, as they made it difficult for Whitman to take careful aim without being hit."

http://www.morganprinting.org/PortRangerRay.html

Civilian 22 rifles--

Yup, long guns Clearwater.
Not pistols that are only good for 50 yards, and only after the police were firing back at him with their rifles already. I also doubt if they would have had much effect at that range and elevation.
I also doubt if any officer anywhere would have said anything negative about the citizens returning fire after such an outrageous shooting spree.
Certainly not in a book he was selling.
(You do understand that the Texas Tower shootings hit the news and the American mind of the time almost as hard as the assassination of Kennedy or 9-11 did? I mean it is almost a forgotten page of history now, but at the time it was all shock and outrage)

Anyway, all this gun talk was not something I wanted to get into. I certainly did not want to get into a long history lesson and be commenting on the American frontier mythology.
That is a sure way to make enemies and annoy friends.

I pointed out in my early comments that I am not anti-gun or pro-gun and why that was. I will leave it at that.

Your comment that economic trends have an effect on crime is interesting. Yet it does not always hold. I don't know the answer to what causes crime rates to fluctuate or to be higher in some counties than others.
I have not been able to find anybody who has an answer either.
Like you I have some ideas, but no way to really know.
______
Yes Chris, I did read the bit about Knife Rights on the homepage.
I wasn't even really interested in that part of this discussion.
I was more interested in how to harden vulnerable places a bit more against the random lunatics.
But I did make at least one comment about the Anties- and their insatiable drive to ban everything possible.
I think for many of them it is like a mania.
When they get down to banning teeth and fingernails let me know, eh.

I am not going to answer on this thread anymore.
My posting list is starting to look like a troll's
_________________________
May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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#164955 - 01/25/09 04:09 PM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: Chris Kavanaugh]
quick_joey_small Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 507
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Chris Kavanaugh
4 pages of predictable posts and an escalation from knives to firearms. So, I must ask? How many people are aware of Doug's other effort for knife rights? it's on the homepage.


Actually I'm finding this a very good gun law conversation. Thanks for correcting me on british gun crime rates Brangdon (shock horror someone on net forum admits to being wrong!). I've looked for them many times. and thanks ironraven for telling me it's NH not Vermont that has the least gun laws (along with alaska). I can never remember which of the two it is.
I should think everyone is aware of Dougs efforts. as you say it's on the home page.
QJS

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#164962 - 01/25/09 04:47 PM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: ]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1105
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: BigDaddyTX
Originally Posted By: Chris Kavanaugh
4 pages of predictable posts and an escalation from knives to firearms. So, I must ask? How many people are aware of Doug's other effort for knife rights? it's on the homepage.


To be fair, he never meant it to be about knives at all, he ended up changing the question to crazy people after the point.


yup, and what have we found to be useful in that regard.

I see-

Run from a knife fight.
Pistols are not a universal antidote.
Long arms, even 22's have there place.
People have strong feelings about the issue.

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#164967 - 01/25/09 06:00 PM Re: This is a call to ban all knives! [Re: clearwater]
Tom_L Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 690
Well, the idea that the Wild West was a period of peace is simply wrong. You have to understand that law enforcement at the time was largely ineffective and in many places nonexistent. Many small rural communities in the Wild West were more or less self-contained so they had to take care of themselves. In contrast, today you can at least dial 911 and expect some assistance. Instead of going after a bunch of hardcore bad guys myself I much prefer having a SWAT team in town. They're pros and can do the job much better than me and my neighbors...

This has happened time and again throughout history - if the state cannot guarantee the safety of the civilian population it has to allow the people to own weapons for their own protection. As history teaches us, that's by and large a stopgap measure that doesn't work nearly as well as a professional police force.

I don't think owning a gun makes anybody any safer. If you look at Africa and many other third-world countries, there are places where just about everyone owns a gun (and more often than not an AK, which is a helluva better weapon than any handgun). Crime rate is still extremely high. Why? Because even an armed population will not be able to do much against organized, heavily armed gangs. That is, unless they can get sufficiently organized themselves to form a standing armed/police force. In which case the civilian population will not really need weapons any longer. smile

Oh, and I'm actually pro-gun. smile

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