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#163652 - 01/18/09 03:54 AM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: scafool]
2005RedTJ Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 475
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama
Originally Posted By: scafool
Originally Posted By: bsmith
Originally Posted By: scafool
(Buy a Jeep, but if you drive it off the pavement like it was sold to you for and you get it stuck you are suddenly a reckless or negligent individual.)

ok. so if you get your jeep stuck - for whatever reason - the tow truck comes and hauls you out for free, right?

no. you gotta pay.

why should i pay to haul your jeep out of trouble?


You people are all so stuck on stuff instead of life it is amazing. The Jeep is just stuff.
You could leave the Jeep to rot for all I care.
I still would not just leave somebody to die simply because they were foolish enough to get a Jeep stuck.

You can not cure stupid, and so long as companies are selling 4x4s and the idea they are invincible in the winter wonderland you will have fools buying into it foolheartedly and going out getting their jeeps stuck.

So why should I subsidize the public cost of accidents which corporations like the makers of Jeep are creating for private profit?

If I follow your argument why not just quit doing search and rescue or any form of disaster relief at all.
If somebody is stupid enough to get lost, or to live in a hurricane, earthquake, fire or whatever zone they get what they deserve. (right?)

I mean If you are dumb enough to buy property in any of the Gulf States or the Mudwest you are no different than the Jeep driver and deserve to get washed away in the next hurricane or flood. (right?)



Exactly. There are too many people who think buying a 4WD vehicle is the be-all-end-all of it. "Look, I have a lever that says 4WD on it, now I'm all set!" They have no idea how to drive a vehicle in 4WD, a lot of them have never even had the vehicle in 4WD. They carry no extraction gear, no survival gear, no tools, most don't even bother to upgrade the vehicle by adding recovery hooks.

Wilderness survival is exactly the same situation. I spend a lot of time in the woods, and am amazed by the number of people I see out there who couldn't manage to build a fire to save their lives. Or manage to find water, or splint a broken leg or arm.

In today's society, as evidenced by the Hurricane Katrina aftermath and a lot of these wilderness rescues, we're living in a world where people expect someone to constantly bail them out when they do something stupid.

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#163655 - 01/18/09 04:37 AM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: scafool]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
Andrew: "That's not what we're discussing here."

Oh, but it is.

What we're talking about here is the cost of the rescue of people who put themselves in precarious situations. If you were to total up all the costs of all the rescues for one year alone, in just one state, it's tremendous. ALL the costs, not just the immediately obvious ones. Some SAR outfits are operating in the red because they've run out of funds.

The problem is escalating over the years because all these twits KNOW that if they get into trouble, someone will fix it for them. People used to have some sense of responsibility, but this aura of entitlement that many people have now is getting old.


Dagny, here are three repeat offenders that I know of:

11-15-2004: Carl Skalak of Ohio was rescued by a Fort Drum helicopter from a campsite in the Adirondaks after he got trapped by heavy lake-effect snows. He had used his new PLB to call for help. The next day, he went back to the same area to retrieve his canoe, got stuck again, and used his PLB to call again. He was arrested the second time, probably for attempting to imitate an intelligent person.

4-8-2000: A man from Fairbanks AK was using his snowmobile to do some 'highmarking' (driving up the side of a mountain and turning back just before the machine bogs down). He was pulled out of the first avalanche by State Troopers and warned. Not long afterward, he was caught in another avalanche. He wasn't arrested, just taken to the morgue.

12-26-08: "Idiot is Repeat Rescue Fiasco" - He had to be rescued twice in 5 minutes. http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2008/12/26/34565_gold-coast-lead-story.html

Sue

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#163656 - 01/18/09 04:44 AM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: scafool]
bsmith Offline
day hiker
Addict

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 584
Loc: ventura county, ca
Originally Posted By: scafool
I still would not just leave somebody to die simply because they were foolish enough to get a Jeep stuck.

neither would i. but we're talking about charging that individual for the tow.

and if they're hiking, for the ride out.

Originally Posted By: scafool
You can not cure stupid, and so long as companies are selling 4x4s and the idea they are invincible in the winter wonderland you will have fools buying into it foolheartedly and going out getting their jeeps stuck.

yep. they pay for the tow charge, don't they?

Originally Posted By: scafool
If I follow your argument why not just quit doing search and rescue or any form of disaster relief at all.

i think we're now talking apples and oranges. disaster relief?

Originally Posted By: scafool
I mean if you are dumb enough to buy property in any of the Gulf States or the Mudwest you are no different than the Jeep driver and deserve to get washed away in the next hurricane or flood. (right?)

well, for me, yes, i do not like having to pay for those who rebuild in flood zones or fire areas.

in an emergency or disaster, everyone gets out. it's those that put others lives at risk through negligence or stupidity that i don't feel sorry for.

charge 'em.
_________________________
“Everyone should have a horse. It is a great way to store meat without refrigeration. Just don’t ever get on one.”
- ponder's dad

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#163660 - 01/18/09 05:11 AM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: bsmith]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
Originally Posted By: bsmith
Originally Posted By: scafool
I still would not just leave somebody to die simply because they were foolish enough to get a Jeep stuck.

neither would i. but we're talking about charging that individual for the tow.

and if they're hiking, for the ride out.

Originally Posted By: scafool
You can not cure stupid, and so long as companies are selling 4x4s and the idea they are invincible in the winter wonderland you will have fools buying into it foolheartedly and going out getting their jeeps stuck.

yep. they pay for the tow charge, don't they?

Originally Posted By: scafool
If I follow your argument why not just quit doing search and rescue or any form of disaster relief at all.

i think we're now talking apples and oranges. disaster relief?

Originally Posted By: scafool
I mean if you are dumb enough to buy property in any of the Gulf States or the Mudwest you are no different than the Jeep driver and deserve to get washed away in the next hurricane or flood. (right?)

well, for me, yes, i do not like having to pay for those who rebuild in flood zones or fire areas.

in an emergency or disaster, everyone gets out. it's those that put others lives at risk through negligence or stupidity that i don't feel sorry for.

charge 'em.


Funny, I thought we were talking about the cost of SAR for people in life threatening situations.

How foolish of me to think we were talking about the cost of rescuing their junk.

Now tell me why I should worry about saving your life if you live in a dangerous area or sometimes do foolish things.
You are obviously negligent if you do that.

Why shouldn't I just let natural evolution function in you and your family's case?
It would cost me a lot less money than paying for an emergency response team.

How about lost boaters and pilots?
They obviously put themselves into danger. Definitely negligent behavior regarding their own safety.
It certainly is not my fault they were on the water or in the air.

Why should I pay for finding anybody.
In fact why should I do anything for anybody else?


Edited by scafool (01/18/09 05:50 AM)
Edit Reason: grammar
_________________________
May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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#163662 - 01/18/09 05:17 AM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: bsmith]
JohnE Offline
Addict

Registered: 06/10/08
Posts: 601
Loc: Southern Cal
So again I ask, what is the solution?

We can all agree that some people are stupid, some people will buy a 4WD vehicle and get into trouble with it, that some people are stupid enough to need to be rescued multiple times and so on and so forth. I have no doubt that given enough time we could find literally thousands of occasions where people doing stupid things have resulted in disaster, but how do we fix things?

I'd suggest that anyone who thinks that it's not society's responsibility to help those in need, or that are tired of paying for things that they don't agree with should start by reading up on the concept of "the social contract".

"the more fortunate need the beggar as the beggar needs the the more fortunate..."
Some Buddhist

JohnE
_________________________
JohnE

"and all the lousy little poets
comin round
tryin' to sound like Charlie Manson"

The Future/Leonard Cohen


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#163667 - 01/18/09 05:47 AM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: JohnE]
scafool Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 1534
Loc: Muskoka
I think one of the things that might help is understanding how small the cost of S&R is compared to the income generated by the outdoor recreation industry.

Sure the cost of one rescue mission for one individual looks big, but you have thousands of people hiking, camping, hunting, 4x4ing and every other activity under the sun.
Those people are all paying out money to equipment dealers, lodges, restaurants, resorts and to governments for licenses and permits.

I think rescuing people who happen to do foolish things should just be counted as part of the cost of doing business.
If you don't do that you really risk hurting the tourism sector of your economy.

In the last New Hampshire State $10.4 billion two-year budget, they refused to approve $100 thousand in funding for Fish and Game's SAR services, expecting it to be paid for out of the fishing and hunting license fees.

Now note that the outdoor recreation industry in New Hampshire alone:
Supports 53,000 jobs across New Hampshire
• Generates $261 million in annual state tax revenue
• Produces nearly $4 billion annually in retail sales and services across New
Hampshire – accounting for 7.8% of gross state product.

And that they were too cheap in that State to come up with a mere $50 thousand a year to balance the funding for SAR services.

Consider also that deliberately underfunding public services is a standard ploy in campaigns to privatize those services.
_________________________
May set off to explore without any sense of direction or how to return.

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#163709 - 01/18/09 04:17 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: scafool]
2005RedTJ Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 475
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama
Originally Posted By: scafool
I think one of the things that might help is understanding how small the cost of S&R is compared to the income generated by the outdoor recreation industry.

Sure the cost of one rescue mission for one individual looks big, but you have thousands of people hiking, camping, hunting, 4x4ing and every other activity under the sun.
Those people are all paying out money to equipment dealers, lodges, restaurants, resorts and to governments for licenses and permits.

I think rescuing people who happen to do foolish things should just be counted as part of the cost of doing business.
If you don't do that you really risk hurting the tourism sector of your economy.

In the last New Hampshire State $10.4 billion two-year budget, they refused to approve $100 thousand in funding for Fish and Game's SAR services, expecting it to be paid for out of the fishing and hunting license fees.

Now note that the outdoor recreation industry in New Hampshire alone:
Supports 53,000 jobs across New Hampshire
• Generates $261 million in annual state tax revenue
• Produces nearly $4 billion annually in retail sales and services across New
Hampshire – accounting for 7.8% of gross state product.

And that they were to cheap in that State to come up with a mere $50 thousand a year to balance the funding for SAR services.

Consider also that deliberately underfunding public services is a standard ploy in campaigns to privatize those services.


I think a balance needs to be found where people are charged only if they are in need of rescue due to their own negligence. Unforseen circumstances can place anyone in peril no matter how prepared they are.

That said, I think education would go a long way toward solving the problem. A lot of people have been coddled so much their entire lives, that they really don't have any idea of the trouble they can get themselves into by being unprepared. I see it all the time, people with no gear, tools, parts. What kills me is when someone has to borrow a tool from me and a month later the same person has to borrow the same tool from me again. Common sense isn't as common as you'd think.

At my work, we offer service agreements on the systems we install, some customers see the need and pay the extra $, some choose not to get one. If you have a service agreement, just about everything gets fixed for free (both parts and labor). But, there are certain things the service agreement doesn't cover. "Acts of God", consumables such as batteries, negligence, remodeling damage, etc...

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#163713 - 01/18/09 04:46 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: 2005RedTJ]
Brangdon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 1201
Loc: Nottingham, UK
Originally Posted By: 2005RedTJ
I think a balance needs to be found where people are charged only if they are in need of rescue due to their own negligence.
Why?

Is this about raising funds (in which case, why pick on just the negligent)? Or about deterrence (in which case, surely the negligent are the ones least likely to be deterred by the cost of rescue, given that they weren't deterred by the chance of dying if the rescue didn't arrive in time - these people aren't really planning ahead)? Or is this mostly because the rescuers want revenge, or at least satisfaction, from seeing negligent people punished for stupidity?
_________________________
Quality is addictive.

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#163717 - 01/18/09 05:14 PM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: Brangdon]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1916
Loc: Washington, DC
Rather than just focus on after-the-fact punishment of those who get lost or stranded, more could be done to prevent people from going in unprepared in the first place.

Better signage, "10 essentials" postings at trailheads, campgrounds and hotels near wilderness areas. A one-pager on preparedness could be part of a rental car's literature.

Public education on preparedness (primarily free media) -- especially in areas like New Hampshire that market their wilderness to tourists -- would save lives.

How big of a problem is this? Anyone know how many people required Search-and-Rescue assistance in 2007 or 2008?

Are we talking here about tragedies like the Kim family's car getting stuck in Oregon a couple years ago?

There but for the grace of God a lot of folks could have gone. Including people on this forum, most of whom are uncommonly knowledgeable of and interested in preparedness or we wouldn't be here.

I'm pretty prepared but I've also been lucky.



Edited by Dagny (01/18/09 05:27 PM)

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#163774 - 01/19/09 12:54 AM Re: Editorial About Charging For Rescue [Re: Brangdon]
2005RedTJ Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 475
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama
Originally Posted By: Brangdon
Originally Posted By: 2005RedTJ
I think a balance needs to be found where people are charged only if they are in need of rescue due to their own negligence.
Why?

Is this about raising funds (in which case, why pick on just the negligent)? Or about deterrence (in which case, surely the negligent are the ones least likely to be deterred by the cost of rescue, given that they weren't deterred by the chance of dying if the rescue didn't arrive in time - these people aren't really planning ahead)? Or is this mostly because the rescuers want revenge, or at least satisfaction, from seeing negligent people punished for stupidity?


Because it goes to the educational aspect of it. I truly think a lot of people who find themselves in need of rescue had no idea what they were getting into. People nowadays are stupid. If they go unprepared and get charged for their own rescue, at least there's a CHANCE they will either not do it again, or be more prepared next time.

And no, it's not about raising funds per se, as much as it's about offsetting the cost that should not be borne by the general tax-paying public for one person's stupidity or unpreparedness.

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