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#161024 - 01/03/09 10:26 AM Re: survival vs. the law retry [Re: username_5]
Tjin Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1821
Originally Posted By: username_5
Originally Posted By: MDinana
Respectfully, I think I'll have to disagree with most of the first post.


Fine by me, I can tolerate polite discussion not agreeing with me.

Quote:
Before I get to that though, just a quick question: if there are such draconian laws in WI, why is hunting such an avid activity? How are the poor "firarm" laws able to be circumvented by deer hunter, etc? I'm asking not to bust your chops, but for my own edification.


The deer hunter enjoys certain protections. Deer hunting is a major revenue generator in Wisconsin so unless a hunter shoots somebody else any trespasses are forgiven. Wisconsin is in the top 5 most taxed states (sometimes coming it at #1) for a reason. Very little of that money goes to actually protecting wildlife even in this age of green everything. Heck, even being as highly taxed as we are we can't even get a snow plow dumping salt to come by our road because it is 'too expensive'. Everyone knows that Illinois politics are hopelessly corrupt, but not everyone knows Wisconsin is the only state other than Illinois that has no form of concealed carry on the books, you simply can't have a firearm on you concealed or open carry without running afoul of the law here.

As I said in a previous post my neighbor is a game warden for the state. During certain seasons you can do anything you want (because it generates revenue) and any other time you cannot. It is like China during the Olympics.

Quote:

Also, the Ritter knife "wobble" isn't a Ritter issue, it's a Benchmade issue.


Do you suppose that when Doug 'designed' 'his' knife he was unaware of this problem? Do you suppose Doug had no knowledge of the blade play issue when he contracted with Benchmade?

Quote:
DR just designed the blade profile, whereas Benchmade is the producer, based on the Griptilian knife model. There is a small screw that acts as the pivot for the blade, that can be tightened. Finally, Benchmade DOES have a lifetime warranty, so you can send it back with a note on what's wrong, and for $5 (return postage), they'll fix it right up.


Actually it costs the phone call to get a Return Authorization, then the postage to Benchmade and the postage from Benchmade. About $20 in total and for that one could buy a Dozier designed Kabar folder. Not as nice, but plenty good as a tool knife. I am not slamming the knife, I am just saying that neither the Benchmade ads nor the Ritter ads mention this very loose blade play not found in other knives. Some may find this blade play disconcerting. This is the kind of thing I was willing to overlook and not mention until I found this hostile forum apparently run by Mr. Ritter who cannot be contacted from any link on his forum. I will be certain to mention this from now on when I see this topic on other forums "Is the RSK worth it?". I used to say 'yes', but will now say 'no' due to the hostility of this forum. Of course there is the obvious product defect that neither Ritter nor Benchmade mention. Had I known about the loose blade play inherent in a 'high end' knife I never would have bought it. The RSK1 is just a drawer knife for me because it's loose blade play disconcerts me. I would love a refund, but since Mr. Ritter can't be contacted from any source on his own website what does that say about him and his products? Chris, I know you are going to ban me, but what can you do about getting me a refund for a cheesy, overpriced knife with good steel? Anything? Do I just have to ask my credit card co to charge back? The knife is a wobbly piece of crap.

Quote:
OK, back on topic! I think that most state laws don't really forbid the type of preparations most of us discuss. For example, any day hike or multi-day camping situation allows us to practice primitive bushskills, fire making, water collecting, etc.[


With respect, you are ignorant of your own state's laws and how often you run afoul of them.

Quote:
Geocaching can help with navigation/GPS/map & compass skills. I don't know where in WI you are and how that affects travel, but if you want to get into trapping, perhaps taking a trip to MN, the UP, or IL would be appropriate? Yeah, trapping may be a bit restricted, but most hunting and fishing isn't (IIRC).


The problem is that trapping works for you 24x7. Fishing and hunting only work for you as long as your energy holds out. Why would I, or anyone, travel at our expense to another state just to learn how to behave illegally in our own state?

Quote:
Hopefully this answers some of the concerns you've raised. As for the knife concerns... well, if you're ever questioned, you might get away by saying something along the lines of "I've carried one ever since my time in the Corps." Nothing illegal about a dialogue. But, of course, I don't think this will get you off the hook if you're carrying a Kabar at Lambeau. wink


And why should a Kabar be illegal at Lambeau? I do not understand. There are many places where knives and guns are illegal and some make some sense, others do not, but the morons keep getting new locations to the can't carry list added and who can keep up? It is beyond my means even though 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' seems to hold a lot of weight with the law and order types. The same types that Katrina proved will abandon their responsibilities in favor of their own families the instant the SHTF.



It's called politics. Want to change the rules in your state? Join them, vote on somebody else, protest, etc. Not much point in **** about it here.
_________________________


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#161027 - 01/03/09 10:42 AM Re: survival vs. the law retry [Re: Rodion]
username_5 Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 54
Originally Posted By: Rodion
Originally Posted By: username_5
Katrina taught us that the law and order officials are going to bail and take care of their own families and leave the rest of us (who can blame them)


By "law enforcement" I mean just that - enforcement of the local laws. Nowhere do I place this responsibility on police officials.


I have no idea what you are talking about.

In an emergency whom should I place responsibility for myself and my family on? Please provide their phone number so I can program it into my speed dial and hope the power stays on long enough to dial it.

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#161042 - 01/03/09 12:25 PM Re: survival vs. the law retry [Re: username_5]
comms Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
Quote:
I did a Google search for 'wisconsin folding knife laws', response time was 0.44 seconds. The first hit was a .pdf that says blades over 3 inches are illegal.


[quote]There is no such law in Wisconsin. Please post the link you found. If it is a link to an actual state statute I eat crow. There is no such law, instead nobody can carry any knife here without fear.[quote]

Here is the link. As I stated before you could have Googled Wisconsin-folding-knife-laws and clicked the first link a .pdf file.

Knife Laws

Don't be so hasty to shoot a crow and eat it. Its not the season. The crow is a protected species under the Migratory Bird Act. And according the the Wisconsin Dept. of Natural Resources which I downloaded online by googling 'hunting crow in Wisconsin' (anticipating your incredulity I provided the link below) you can't take that crow until between Jan 25 and Mar 20.

Crow hunting laws in Wisc.

_________________________
Don't just survive. Thrive.

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#161048 - 01/03/09 12:43 PM Re: survival vs. the law retry [Re: comms]
username_5 Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 54
Originally Posted By: comms
Quote:
I did a Google search for 'wisconsin folding knife laws', response time was 0.44 seconds. The first hit was a .pdf that says blades over 3 inches are illegal.


[quote]There is no such law in Wisconsin. Please post the link you found. If it is a link to an actual state statute I eat crow. There is no such law, instead nobody can carry any knife here without fear.[quote]

Here is the link. As I stated before you could have Googled Wisconsin-folding-knife-laws and clicked the first link a .pdf file.

Knife Laws


Your link isn't to Wisconsin state law which I specifically requested. You linked to a national compository of laws that shows that 4 counties in Wisconsin consider over 3" to be illegal. Any idea how many counties there are in Wisconsin? Wisconsin state law is intentionally vague so local DAs can invent law. This makes the knife carrying citizen a potential criminal anywhere in the state. Still, for those 4 counties that consider over 3" a violation of law, how do you feel about that? Is that reasonable?

Heck, my silly little Swiss Army Knife with the cheap, bent up steel probably exceeds that.

Quote:
Don't be so hasty to shoot a crow and eat it. Its not the season. The crow is a protected species under the Migratory Bird Act. And according the the Wisconsin Dept. of Natural Resources which I downloaded online by googling 'hunting crow in Wisconsin' (anticipating your incredulity I provided the link below) you can't take that crow until between Jan 25 and Mar 20.

Crow hunting laws in Wisc.



which would be another stupid law since crows abound here and are not in any danger of extinction. Crows are good for killing the nests of Robbins though, the state bird. Can't kill a crow raiding a Robbin's nest unless one has the required permits, even on one's own property.

Yeah, that makes sense.

A crow kills 4-6 Robbins before they hatch, but if a human kills an adult Robbin or disturbs their nest they are a criminal. Wow.

Yeah, law and order all the way. Makes total sense. After a lobotomy.

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#161050 - 01/03/09 12:47 PM Re: survival vs. the law retry [Re: username_5]
Tjin Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1821
if you have questions about the laws in your state, county or whatever. Go to the local police office and simply ask.
_________________________


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#161058 - 01/03/09 01:00 PM Re: survival vs. the law retry [Re: Tjin]
username_5 Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 54
Originally Posted By: PC2K
if you have questions about the laws in your state, county or whatever. Go to the local police office and simply ask.


My neighbor is a former cop and now game warden. I have asked and for many laws that would apply to fishing/hunting/defense etc his simple answer is it 'depends on the DA and jury'. That was and is the point of my first post and now this second one.

We live under laws that threaten us for simply going through the motions of survival preparedness.

Catch and kill a fish 1" under or over the limit? Better hope a game warden doesn't see you if you have money (they can take any gear of yours they wish including vehicles without a trial). If you are Hmong you will go free because popular perception is that Hmong have no money. The DNR is just another political agency in place to make revenue for the state and no higher purpose.


Get some practice with 550 paracord for a snare? Better hope you have the right license and required training courses. Even with the training/license it isn't clear if such a trap is legal. The only sure legal trap is the commercially purchased one.

Want to carry a firearm? Forget about it. No concealed carry anywhere in the state and while open carry is technically legal you will get charged with a 'disturbing the peace' violation for any open carry in the state. And on and on and on.

That was the original point of this post.


Edited by username_5 (01/03/09 01:08 PM)

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#161070 - 01/03/09 01:54 PM Re: survival vs. the law retry [Re: username_5]
oldsoldier Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 742
Loc: MA
Ah, I have yet to see a case where a person lost their veicle for catching a fish 1" over the size limit. Please refer me to a specific case, ruling, or precedent, otherwise, I think you re HIGHLY overexagerrating.
_________________________
my adventures

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#161075 - 01/03/09 02:55 PM Re: survival vs. the law retry [Re: username_5]
UncleGoo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 390
Loc: CT
I think you're being deliberately obtuse.
The previous thread was locked partially because you used language outside the bounds of what is acceptable here, and left the comment in place for a moderator to edit.
Open carry will only result in "disturbing the peace," when you contact other reasonable people, who are disturbed by your behavior.
You're asking a lot for us to believe that an eighteen year old, robbing a laundromat, is a first offender. I don't believe it. I've been around offenders and courtrooms enough to know that, if the man got ten years out of it, a judge and jury thought he needed it.
Education, regulation, and equipment standards are not limited to only wildlife conservation: DMV, for one, is tasked the same way, for the same rationale.
If you view this kind of regulation as a real problem, perhaps you should relocate.

Good day.
_________________________
Improvise,
Utilize,
Realize.

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#161093 - 01/03/09 04:14 PM Re: survival vs. the law retry [Re: username_5]
JCWohlschlag Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 724
Loc: Sterling, Virginia, United Sta...
Originally Posted By: username_5
Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
Please be aware that this is a survival forum, not a survivalist forum,

What is the difference between survival and survivalist?
I would assume a person who survives is a survivalist, but I am fairly new to this whole thing so perhaps there is nomenclature I am unfamiliar with? Something that might help others is having a terms of service clearly posted. I have look for this site's terms of service and can't find them even after reading every entry in the FAQ. Kind of hard to know what is OK and what isn't.

In response to the above concern, you can find the contextual definition of “survivalist” at http://www.equipped.org/pop_up_survivalist_def.htm. If you need to find this link in the future, it is located at the top of the Equipped to Survive home page, in the first paragraph, labeled, “Please note that this is not a ‘survivalist’ site.

In response to the general thread topic, I think you need to be more specific. In general, I am of the opinion that many laws do not apply when one is in a true survival situation and it was reasonable to act outside the law at the time. For example, I am of the opinion that no one is going to pinch you for snaring a squirrel when you are stuck out in the woods with no food and have no other reliable food gathering option. What laws you break while in a survival situation will be yours to decide, and you will have to weigh the reasoning yourself, i.e., “Would following the letter of the law be detrimental to my own survival right now?”

Your specific mention of the Wisconsin firearms carry law is a complex case to consider. I do not know the Wisconsin laws on this, so I cannot make specific recommendations, but in general, I cannot think of a reasonable situation where you could choose to violate that law due to a survival situation and not have already broken the law by carrying your firearm to the survival situation’s location.

Your mention of the Swiss Army Knife/robbery case is also complex. I don’t see robbery having anything to do with survival in that case and I honestly don’t think it applies to the general topic you are asking. Was 10 years too much? Are regulations on Swiss Army Knives stupid? That will depend on who you ask, and expecting a consensus on a public forum is futile.

I have already mentioned my opinion on where snaring and trapping would be overlooked. I believe that the question-to-ask-yourself that I posted above, “Would following the letter of the law be detrimental to my own survival right now,” pretty much can apply to any survival situation and your decision to act outside the law in a particular case. However, each person has to weigh the “being a criminal versus being dead” possibilities themselves, and everyone will come to different conclusions.

Myself, would I set snares if it were one of only a few ways of gathering food and I was hungry? You bet I would… even if fishing is a secondary possibility. There is no way to be 100% sure I would catch any fish, just like there is no way to be 100% sure I would catch any game in the snares. Would I take the snares down in such a case that I caught an amount of fish that would tide me over for a good while? I very well might, depending on the specific situation.

I also have a gill net in my kit, even though I believe their use is illegal. I have it vacuum packed just in case a law enforcement officer finds it and questions it, thinking that hopefully the vacuum pack will prove to him that I have not actively used it and that it being with the rest of my emergency kit equipment will show that it is for emergency use only. I have considered the risks of carrying the gill net versus the risks of not carrying it and made my decision based on that consideration. I also accept whatever consequences come of that decision… hoping they won’t be 10 years.
_________________________
“Hiking is just walking where it’s okay to pee. Sometimes old people hike by mistake.” — Demitri Martin

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#161102 - 01/03/09 04:34 PM Re: survival vs. the law retry [Re: ]
Lono Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 1013
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
Folks, we need a post on the care and feeding of passive-aggressive trolls. You're encouraging him, and he's getting off on it. Username, I'm curious - you walk in a bar and have a beer (or a soda), do you stay for long, or are you asked to leave? Truth told many trolls come off much better in person than in forums. Peace, but I'm setting these threads to ignore, I don't have time.

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