I hate for this to be my first post here. I've lurked for a few years, and have picked up many many tips and pointers.

I had posted this over in the BladeForums Gadgets & Gear forum, and was advised to also post here, hopefully to determine if this is an isolated or common occurance.

I was packing a kit, and just happened to open my Sparklite OD case. There was a whitish-gray powder inside.

I removed the Sparklite sparker, and saw this:



The powder reminds me of an oxidized firestarter rod.

Has anyone else experienced this?

I checked a couple others I had, and they are fine.

Just trying to get an idea of frequency, hoping this is an isolated happening.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike

I copied your post to Oak Norton of Four Seasons survival, who makes the Spark Lite. He should be getting back to me soon, and I'll forward his reply to you
Stu

How old is that model? I have not seen one in green. I've had the orange for a few years and only seen that.

Spark lites come in both OD Green and orange.

The green ones are military issue.

Thank you.

Much appreciated.

I've had this one maybe a year, was one of my spares for future kits.

I had that happen with a couple of old ones.

4 Seasons replaced them.

4 Seasons had a short run of defective sparkers. I'm suprised you missed the older posts discussing this, and that you didn't contact Oak first.

I stop by, but infrequently.

Sorry I missed the earlier ones, or knew whom I should contact.

Found this thread/post.

I'll contact them.

http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=68567

Dear thatmguy
From Oak

"we are replacing those SL's with two new ones that we guarantee for life. If anyone finds a defective SL all they have to do is contact me by phone at 814 234 -0698 or E mail me at o.norton@juno.com." Get ahold of him and he will fix you up
Stu

posted after talking with Oak
"Hello Chris... and thanks for your defense.... I know a few people got
hold of one of those SL's from that particular lot of defective Spark
Lites ... So far I have been most fortunate to only have eight or nine
people that I know of who have complained. We are replacing those SL's
with two new ones that we guarantee for life. If anyone finds a defective
SL all they have to do is contact me by phone at 814 234 -0698 or E mail
me at
o.norton@juno.com

Chris, I know those defective SL's have been around for at least three
years and are not new. Again, appreciate very much your assistance
regarding this problem. Also, can you possibly assist me in being able to
get on to the forum so I can answer complaints etc... When I tried to
open using my old pass word I was informed that my time had expired on
the forum..

Will send a copy of this E mail to Doug Ritter...and also to Stu
Carpenter......

Thanks, Oak"

This may be off topic, but related. A couple of months ago, I opened a box of stuff always kept in my car (for a couple of years and not checked > no good, I know). It included a couple of Bic lighters with flint. They had the same problem: a white/grey powder on them and in the box. After testing it seems the flints were partially or totally disintegrated.

The strange thing: some were unaffected, others seemed partially disintegrated, others totally useless.

The lighters were placed there at the same moment. Why such a difference in condition? Some lighters have been used tot test them, others not.

Some questions to try and understand the differences:
- were the ones tested/used the ones that disintegrated? (by rubbing of the coating?
- Were they affected by moisture?
- are there other reasons?

There was a packet of 4 lighters that was still in the original unopened foil wrapper. They were all unaffected.

Does this mean the best thing to do is to put a never used lighter and/or sparklite in a kit to have the most chance of having an unaffected one?

I have no sparklite. I would love to, but can't find them locally in Belgium (Europe).

Greetings,
tranx

Even more off topic: I put a little possibles kit in the car glove compartment in the spring. When I checked it in the autumn. I found everything had a strange feel and there was a 6 inch piece of string I don't remember putting in there.
Then I realised the candle was gone :-).
Use high melting point candles folks.
The Sock

I learned that lesson the hard way in Phoenix when i first got here. learned that Vaseline lip balm while hot, does not melt like Chapstick when left in a car that reaches 150 degrees in the summer.

Same with deoderant left in a gym bag. Spray or roll on but not a solid.

Too sophisticated a technology. Keep it simple.

Get a fire steel and paint it with clear nail varnish to prevent any corrosion (or coral pink red if that appeals to you) Better still keep a piece of flint, that wont corrode.

Go paleo for long term reliability

Unfortunately I had problems with my Spark-Lite too not long time ago. I don´t know whether it was bad item or not but it´s output was way too weak even for prepared fluffed up Tinder quik. I guess it´s rather because of the design. I am also fan of more simple survival tools. If the ferrocerium rod inside the Spark-lite could be easily pulled out and used like classic Swedish firesteel when neccessary it would be another story for me.

Hi tranx, I guess I am in a similar situation like you when getting these less usual items because I am from Czech republic. When I wanted to try Spark-lite I found an on-line store which carried knives, flashlights, some firestarters etc. There was no Spark-lite though so I asked them via e-mail if they could purchase it for me and they absolutely agreed. Several days later I had my Spark-lite. They even added it to their store. I am sure that if I will ever need something survival related that no store here carryies I can ask them to purchase it for me.
You could try the same strategy - try to contact some knife on-line stores (that purchase a lot of brands from USA) and ask if they would purchase Spark-lite for you.

When this fails you can contact me using Personal Message - I could purchase it and send it to you. It would be a bit more expensive this way though due to the added shipping.

The wheel is made to work 1 way, and there is a arrow on the shaft that gives the correct direction to spin the wheel. If used the wrong way it will give far fewer sparks

For European Spark-Lites contact four seasons directly
http://www.fourseasonssurvival.com/Spark..._p_128-109.html
The will ship directly to Western Europe

Who's that vendor and are they in Europe? Though I can figure out the last part with the answer to the first part. It'd be good to know, thanks for your input.

Hi yelp, yes, it is located in Europe but it is just Czech on-line store - www.mujnuz.cz (alternative address: www.nuz-knife-messer.cz). I guess it won´t be useful to anyone outside the Czech Republic because it is not some reseller for whole Europe or something like that.

Hi SBRaider, I knew about it. Thanks for the tip though.

Still fantastic info since a lot of us travel. Great to know if we have to have some items shipped to an in-country hotel (or what have you). Thanks again.

No problem, yelp.

*looks around and whispers*
Uh, dude, you do realize you are saying that on the internet, probably using a computer that has more calculating power than all of pre-1980 world and more storage than the sum total of all printed texts in human history, assuming you optimize the file format.

I sure do which is why I wouldn't rely on it to start a fire in the bush or anywhere else.

And if I were in survival mode a pencil and notebook are more reliable than a laptop

There is no laptop or Blackberry in my BOB - only a cheap phone which uses little power.

I'm sure SparKlites are generally well made but not as reliable as a fire steel or a piece of flint or even bamboo.

Kindly break your arm/wrist and then please demonstrate starting a fire with your fire steel. Please post video for us all to watch the fun...

The point being that "reliable" can mean different things, depending upon the circumstances. A piece of survival gear that does not lend itself to one-handed use may not be "reliable" at all if you only have one hand to use.

Unlike Doug, I'll let you keep both arms, but I still say prove it.

And it by any measure more time and weight efficient. Bushcraft is great if you've got the time, but it is technology developed in an era when the average life span was under 40 years old. I'm stacking the deck- I'd have 52 aces if they'd let me bring my own.

Speaking as someone who has broken his left arm/wrist 6 times and his right 4, (I raced motocross and three-wheelers when I was a kid and fought a lot) I KNOW how hard it is to do even the most mundane tasks with one hand.
Run to the can and try unzipping, do your business and pack everything back up with your off hand only. (Stay Dry,and don't get caught in the zipper!)
Now you were in a comfy cozy environment. Would you want to try that after having walked in the cold all day? How about after taking an unplanned swim in a near frozen pond?

If the SparkLite can best the BlastMatch, USAF Mg bar, Fire Steel, Lifeboat matches and a Bic in the cold hands of my 12 year old daughter (then, now 13) ON THE FIRST TRY to ever light a survival fire I think the "technology" must be OK.

All I did was hand her the DR PSP and told her "Make Fire". I had to train her on the others.

Go figure, A girl of 12, was able to make a tinder bundle from having watched me, open a PSP and spark up a tinder-quick with no help. Might be the best thing going for that one armed bandit now, huh?

Yes, I do carry multiple fire starters. I carry SparkLite, Doan Mg block, REI Matches in a W/P container, Fire Steel, and since I like to stack the deck also I have a "Torch" lighter and my bad habit forces me to have a Bic. The BlastMatch has been relegated to the survival junk drawer. Yes the SparkLite is rarely used, because I save it for the express purpose of fire when I have issues with all the others. (Or break my arm again)

I am not the user "BOD" but decided to take the challenge.

It is actually quite doable. Since I don´t carry Spark-lite I thought about this and came up with this method. Just anchor the firestarter with your shoe and you are good to go. Video demonstration below.




videos:

.avi (DivX 5.1.1 Codec) video file - Rapidshare:
http://rapidshare.com/files/173143357/ferrocerium-starting_fire_using_1_hand-DivX_5-1-1_Codec.avi


alternative multiplatform .swf video file - Rapidshare (in order to play the video load the .swf file into your browser via File > Open):
http://rapidshare.com/files/173149218/ferrocerium-starting_fire_using_1_hand.swf

I congratulate you on your ingenuity. Now I have not yet viewed the video, but how did it work on wet ground (mud) in the rain?

Thanks, nothing too special though.
As for the fire starting when the ground is wet I don´t think this is a problem as long as the rod is not fully pressed down to the ground and the ferrocerium is partially exposed. If there is really some deeper mud you can make some stable area using whatever works - branches, something flat and solid from your survival kit, ... . It´s not a good idea to make a fire directly on muddy ground anyway.
Nevertheless I have got some solutions on how to anchor the firesteel in order for it to be above the ground. I will send photos later.

"...break your arm/wrist and then please demonstrate..."

not broken, but my dominant arm is in a sling for a while, and i guarantee you that i could not use a fire steel. making a pbj sandwich was a struggle. opening a can of chili was impossible...

per a post earlier, watch out for the zipper.

10-4...

Another way is to bury the tip of your knife blade in a log, dirt or a drunk friend's wooden leg. Make sue the knife is fairly stable. Take your firesteel and draw it across the spine of the knife. See where the sparks go and place your tinder there.

I've done this many times demonstrating how to use a firesteel 1 handed to friends. With a bit of practice. it is easy to do.

That's a great idea, thanks!

I see now why I have incurred the ire of Doug and some others. I was puzzled and read back through my posts (see below)

When I said "I sure do which is why I wouldn't rely on it to start a fire in the bush or anywhere else. :)" it looks like I am refering to the Sparklite but I wasn't. I was responding to the previous post that somehow liked the internet and computers with the Sparklite and fire starting and the "it" refered to the laptop.

If you read on in my post I do say "I'm sure SparKlites are generally well made but not as reliable as a fire steel ...."

I am not saying that they are no good.

The point I was making is that the more manufacture that goes into a tool/machine the more chance of failure and the likelihood we will not be able to fix it so we should not rely on it solely but also on simple things that are less liable to damage and more likely to work.

In practice I carry a couple of lighters and a firesteel and knife and several tinders. I also carry in my head the knowledge to make fire in a couple of other ways.

As to being one handed it is something I am often concerned about as a solo walker in the jungle though my main concern is being one legged (Solution cut a staff before going in).

I practice bandaging the opposite arm/hand and I could use the firesteel single handed - tinder on bark base; firesteel into bundle;left knee on other side of firesteel; using tip of knife (emergency remember)scrape steel and spark onto tinder.

Not the same as the other method but it will do. Quite clever the other way.But I'd probably just use one of the lighters.

In fact I was quite impressed how well the company responded to the problem.

I practice and rely on both parts of this sites name - Equipped and Survive not just one.

To Raptor: Thank you very much for your offer to buy it for me and send it to me. Call me old-fashioned, but I like to by my goods in a real shop (not online). Although, I might have to reconsider because not all things can be found locally, especially the "survival stuff".
To SBRaider: thanks for the info.

Thanks for the ideas on one handed use of firesteel.
I should go practising one handed firestarting (once I start masering it with both hands). Firestarting by an experienced outdoorsman looks deceptively simple.

Resurrecting this old thread just to pass along a huge kudos to Mr. Oak Norton and Four Seasons Survival. One of my backup Spark Lites developed the same whitish-looking powder as the OP and the wheel failed to turn at all, in any direction (it is completely frozen stiff). This was a Spark Lite I had purchased about four or five years ago and has hardly been used. A quick e-mail to Mr. Norton and he has a replacement being sent out ASAP. Amazing customer service and a company willing to stand behind their products 110%.

My blastmatch I was testing with broke too. Not even after that many uses.. the striker ripped out the of plastic, similar to what happened here.

To me sending a replacement is awesome but in a survival situation do you really want your equipment failing SO easily? NOPE. I won't be carrying a blastmatch.

Lately I've had a run of bad luck with anything to do with fire. A new Windmill lighter died within a handful of uses. All of my WetFire tinder has shown to be poorly sealed. And the wheel on the backup Spark Lite failed to operate.

I agree -- there is no way I want to be stuck somewhere without a reliable means to make fire. So I have been carrying at least three redundant methods: lighter, matches, and some variety of firesteel (plus tinder). I was thinking about trying out the Blast Match or new Sparkie for giggles, but there are just waaay too many moving parts for my taste.

This is why I like the simple ferro-rod over other more complicated methods. It works and there isn't too much about it that can fail. Sure, it might degrade with age, but a simple coat of clear nail polish before you put it into storage stops that. I've got a ferro-rod on a magnesium bar that's older than me and it still starts fires no problem.

Good point and well made but sadly the Spark Lite is probably not that tool.

I have had difficulty using a Spark Lite whilst having cold hands and being chilled. This leads me to think the Spark Lite would be next to impossible to use if you were hypothermic. It is way to small to use. If you had frost nip or bite using the Spark Lite is likely to cause tissue damage which would further hinder your progress.

It surprised me to that the Spark Lite had an NSN No, do NSN items get tested in the real world? Or does the item just go through a cataloging process.

A survival tool that cant be used when you really need it will send you mad, make you angry and hammer your confidence: all things you want to avoid when your life hangs in the balance.

Exactly.

And if it breaks after a couple uses... again not exactly reliable no matter the warranty.

Todd, I've had a blast match plastic break on me as well, but I actually like the rod better than I do their device and I pulled mine out and drilled a hole in it and use it instead of carrying the big plastic contraption they have. I love UST's fire steel, even if there plastic case is not as strong as the make out, the fire steel is still rock solid, good diameter and length and works great on a key chain with a hacksaw blade to strike it. It's a shame about the wet fire tender problems they are having right now, I hope they resolve the packing issues, I really like the their tender as well when it works (hince the problem). You can still strike it one handed as demonstrated above, you just have to get creative.

The US military has been using the Spark Lite since the late 1970's and it has tested many times, including in Survival Schools in Alaska!.
I've seen persons with hypothermia who could not use any thing to start a fire.

Breaking News! Oak Norton and Four Seasons Survival will be bringing to the the market within a few short weeks, some aluminum Spark-Lite's with replaceable flints! After using some of the previously designed brass Spark-Lite's in all weather conditions, I'm looking forward getting my hands on these new Aluminum Spark-Lite's. The new Aluminum Spark-Lite's come with an allen wrench and 1 spare flint along with 8 Tinder Quik in the familier blaze orange plastic case.[b][/b]

One thing about ferrocerium rods is that they will deteriorate with time/moisture if exposed. Notice that when you buy Ronson 'flints' for your lighter they are covered in red varnish. I would guess that this coating stops or slows the oxidation process. Scrape that off the first time you spark it and you start the clock.

I don't know if Sparklite flints are fully varnished when manufactured, but it's clear that if you spark it once to test it and put it back, it may fail some time in the future. The thing to do is have a few around, one to play/practice with and leave the others unsparked. And inspect your kit every so often.

Stu, I was first introduced to Spark lite at the Land Survival School, Washington, back in the late 80s. It was not as part of a survival kit but as the fire starting kit. I voiced my concerns back then about its use in the cold-land environment. The instructors agreed with me and said they prefer the magnesium blocks or metal matches.

Many skills are demonstrated in the ideal surroundings of a survival course by fit, healthy, well equipped and well rehearsed instructors and students. Most of these skills become very hard when used for real. Too much kit is give a place in the military because it works in the training environment yet fails at the first sight of real life contacts. Secondly, military survival is normally in the form of tactical escape and evasion. Fire is none tactical, so it is far less important in a military survival kit.

I have also seen people unable to do much with hypothermia. But, it is possible to do many things whilst you have mild hypothermia, to allow you to slowdown or stop the effects. Providing the tools you use do not require fine motor skills and that you can hold them.

Although the Spark lite does not require very fine motor skills it does require a tight grip that relies on that you have feeling left in your hand. The wheel is quite stiff and need quite a bit of pressure and feeling to turn. With cold hands this is painful, with no feeling in your hands this is nearly impossible to do.

I found that the spark lite is a lot easier to strike against my thigh when cold providing you can grip it. Interestingly if you can use a spark lite you can use a Bic lighter. Which has a far larger body, which allows you to grip it better with cold hands.

Can anyone tell me which military survival kits since the 1970s the spark lite has been included in, including date of issue and NSN No of the kit.

The older trappers always kept large wooden kitchen matches handy. (often in a sealed tube to keep them dry)
I never liked carrying them because they would get damp and useless or they could light up in your pocket by accident.
I always had either a bic or a zippo handy, and had the kitchen matches in the cupboard at camp.

I really prefer the spark rods like Doan's Magnesium or Firesteel as an emergency lighter to carry over any spark wheel I have seen so far.
When your hands are so cold that turning a key in an ignition lock is a huge challenge you certainly do not want to be struggling with a finicky spark wheel, not even on a bic lighter. (of course you should have had a fire going and be warming your fingers around a mug of hot tea before you ever got that cold to start with, but that is another thread)

Sometimes we trade a bit too much of item's functions off in favour of compactness and reduced weight.
It is fine that if you don't have it with you it does you no good, and the bulkier it is the less likely you are to carry it, but the other side is that it has to work when you need it, and work under the worst conditions.
To sacrifice effectiveness for reduced size often results in a useful tool becoming reduced to nothing but a trinket, and it is a strategy that should be used with a bit of caution.

There is one thing the sparklight score well on. It can be used with one hand. If you have been hurt you might only have one hand available to do things with.
(It is the same reason I like putting one hand opening knives in emergency kits if they can not carry a fixed blade.)

I agree. I have several sparklites, but the only thing in my persoanl experience that beats a firesteel and tinderquik is a road flare.
I've been cold before, and fumbling with a bic lighter or a sparklite is not fun. Especially if your fingers are damp.
I do carry storm matches with me, but they're hard to come by up here (it's a hazmat thing, nobody will ship them ).

I am sure you can use matches one handed: as well as lighters. I'm also sure you would soon figure out how to use a fire steel, metal match or flint and steel one handed if you thought about it.

You can also use a magnifying glass, fire piston, battery and wire; small arm rounds and pyrotechnics one handed.

To market something on its one handed use is not a great if the design is floored by having the tool way to small to use effectavely.

People often use the "what if your hand is injured" argument when describing the Spark lite. If your hand or arm is that badly injured then the chances are you will be suffering from shock so again you will not be able to use fine motor skills or operate small fiddly items of kit.

Spark lite is a lot better than some of the other products out there but it aint great for cold-land environments. But, you would be a fool if you had no other form of fire lighting in cold-land environments.

I've lit quite a few fires well below freezing with a sparklite, and many more above it. Never had a problem once I had my gloves on. Is that an issue, sure, but I can't work a match with heavy gloves on either.

The sparklite is a compromise item- size of a match, hundreds of lights.

[quote=PureSurvival][

Can anyone tell me which military survival kits since the 1970s the spark lite has been included in, including date of issue and NSN No of the kit.
[/quoteI'll see what I can find ot.
I do know our host Doug Ritter put the spark-lite in the Pocket Survival Pack he designed, currently being sold by Adventure Medical kits, as well as the Doug Ritter Essentials Aviator Survival Vest sold through Aeromedix, and the Spark-Lite is in many if not all of Doug's other kits.
A quick look at a few of the Boulder Outdoor Survivalip School (BOSS) kits had the Spark-Lite in them.
1-814-234-0698 - Oak Norton at Four Seasons Survival may be better to answer your questions about the military uses.

Have you bothered to contact Oak Norton yet as I suggested to get the answer to your question?