On the news last night, I notice a US troop carrying a Steyr AUG assault rifle. Are you changing to that as your standard rifle or was that a personal weapon?

we im defenatly not an expert, but i sure know that isn't a US army or marinis issue rifle ! As far as i know AR-15 are THE standard issue assault rifle. And i have heard they are going to replase there AR-15 with something else ( forgot the name ) which is basically a Heckler & Koch G36 with AR-15 sights, stock, etc.

Yes, I share your interest in weapons and I also know that at the moment it isn't the standard issue, but I thought they might be making a change. I didn't know that they're adopting the G3.

The US is still using M-16 series rifles (M-16A2, A3, A4, and the M-4 series carbines) as their standard rifle. Given the current political situation, the chance of the US adopting the G-36 would be remote. (The G3 is out of production.)

The current debate in the US concerns the stopping power of the M-4 series carbines at distance. It's the 5.56mm vs. 7.62mm argument all over again. There are several stories out of Afghanistan and Iraq of multiple hits being required after 150 - 200 meters. I can not confirm the accuracy of the reports, but they seem numerous and from varied sources.

I have owned and fired the M-16 (AR-15), the AUG, HK rifles and Kalashnikov rifles (freely, legally, and NEVER a threat to my neighbors...), and the AUG is the finest production military rifle in use today. Period. There is NO competition.

There. Now that I've utterly settled this question, let's get back to heated arguments over water purification or the like. I love those. <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

.....CLIFF

The debate goes beyond 5.56 vs .308. The Afghans were successfullly sniping kalashnikov equipped Soviets with FLINTLOCKS and SMLEs. The whole debate was summed rather nicely by Sir Winston Churchill in his History of the English Speaking Peoples. "for smashing longheads or roundheads, Iron is definitely superior to bronze."

I know, I know. This has nothing whatsoever to do with water purification, but I cant resist. Here goes....

To me, the debate is all about range. Since it was decided back in the '40s that the maximum effective combat range for an infantry rifle was no more than 300 meters, the acceptable stopping power the ammunition has decreased. .303 and .30-'06 gave way to 7.62X51 (NATO), which has, to a large degree, given way to 5.56X45. Even the Sov.. ,sorry, Russians, went this route, though for rather different doctrinal reasons.

In Afghanistan, where engagements often bagan at 300+ meters, mortars and the 7.62mm GPMGs were the most effective infantry weapons. I found it interesting that in the images coming out of Afghanistan in late 2001, many Northern Alliance soldiers carried the Russian 7.62R PK and PKM GP machine guns as their primary weapon - and not Kalashmikovs.

So I guess what I'm saying, Chris, is that I agree with you. I think.

.....CLIFF

P.S. Nice bit quoting the most important person ever to live in the 20th century.

Can US soldiers carry personnal weapons, or did I just dream that I saw that Steyr AUG?

along the same line :

in the movie "Black Hawk Down", when the Rangers arm themself before taking off for the mission, it looks like they take the equipment they want, which induced severe problems later on :
- not enough water, partial body armor, no NV googles, etc ....

Is that a movie exaggeration or what ? Are privates free to select their equipment ??

Just wondering. And curious !
(reading the book afterwards, it seems the movie was quite accurate)


Alain

Are privates free to select their equipment ??

Typically, no. Squad leaders or section sergeants would inspect the men to make sure they were carrying the required equipment. What went wrong in Somolia was that they had done several of this type of raid previously and each time the plan went off without a hitch. By the time of this mission the the thinking sort of developed "Well the last 3 times I didn't need NVGs, extra water, whatever" and so essential gear was left behind. It was a failure in leadership. About the only exception is when it comes to ammo. Then you take at least the prescribed load, as much extra as you want, and maybe a little more.

Ed

Thanks for the explanation.


Alain

US military personnel are not allowed to carry personal firearms. Not in this day and age. (I know I wasn't.) Besides the political incorrectness of it, there are many practical reasons - logistical, training, and support - that argue against it. Also, a semi-auto AUG in the US is about $3,500.00 - when you can find one. If you're an E-5, would you risk that kind of personal cash when your Uncle will loan you an M-16A4 and some nifty optics? Me either. I do know some SF types, and they sometimes get to choose their weapon (from the SF armory) for certian missions. (Also, several chopper pilots I knew carried their own sidearm, but I don't think it was official policy)

Second - I also saw several images of a US soldier with an AUG. They were from the REUTERS website, I believe, and were taken during the clearing of Uday's palace - he was rather fond of gun collecting. One shows a trooper with the weapon up and ready, looking thru the sight, and another of a soldier with an AUG at sling arms. (he also had his M-4 in the same position). According to the captions, all of Uday's collection was truned in and "taken away" by the Army. Whatever that means. Oh, yes: the AUGs at Uday's - they were identified as "Austrian Assault Rifles" in news reports - were in crates indicating that they were originally sold to the Jordanian Army (according to the reports I saw).

Hope this helps,

.....CLIFF

P.S. Just to keep this screed on topic: a small bottle of iodine water purification tablets will fit rather nicely in the cleaning kit well in the stock of an AUG.......... <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There was a very silly idea in Vietnam that helicopter pilots shouldn't carry 1911s. The reasoning being a spent shell might jam the controls. A. Nobody planned on shooting their sidearm in the cockpit,inflight and B. just behind them was a door gunner throwing brass all over the deck. So the pilots were officially armed with M&Ps with that charming 158 GR FMJ bullet. This sillyness was circumvented by acquiring a venerable 1917 Colt or S&W in .45 ACP. In the shoulder holster the butts with lanyard ring looked identical. In the Coast Guard we could carry personal 1911 .45s ( when authorized) after the gunsmith checked them over for safety and standard harball ammo used exclusively. I used to cause a stir with my 1911 NAVY marked 3 digit piece <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Chris,
My best friend's dad was executive officer of the local Coast Guard base at John U. Lloyd State Park in Hollywood Florida before he retired and later passed away. He was second generation C.G. too, since the granddad had chased rumrunners from the base at Bahia Mar in the 1920's. I heard a thousand C.G. stories and classic gut busting jokes from my "other dad" Jimmy over the years while sitting at his dinner table before he'd have to run off back to work and coordinate a dope bust or some other brave endeavor. In later years we also shared some of the finest whiskey good men have ever had the pleasure to b.s. over. He was quite a storyteller, and very very missed. We've had boats in the family, and I've been at home on the ocean since I was a kid. I have the deepest respect for the fine job done by our Coast Guard men and women. Regards, Keys

Well, I saw it when they were defending that head quarters building from angry protestors in Baghdad the other day. I think your right though, it was probably from Udays personnal collection.

It is a great outfit. I still regret being unable to continue my career as planned. It is such a small outfit I literally always met somebody I had previously served with. Even 24 years later, in an Arizona swimming pool, the senior C.G. rescue swimmer, another former coastie and myself were connected with mutual friends. Try telling someone you loaned money to the Coast Guard Acadamy commandant on a friday night when his car ran out of gas ( teaching a local college boating sfety course) and you both pushed it into a station in full dress uniforms ( a full captain and a E2 <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

well,
I know that US special forces specificaly, Delta, have had their M4's chamberd for a new 6.8mm round 120gr. bullet at 2,700, with a 100gr. AP @3000fps, which uses the current magazines with only re-barreling..
After afganistan and Toras Bora, they realised the 5.56mm was pretty useless past about 200m, but then what can you expect using a 14" barrel?

Where did you see the picture? I ask because maybe that news agency has a photo gallery on its website.

BBC news

As a matter of interest I noticed on at least one encounter near Basra early in the piece that a US squad were using 'marksmen' rifles when they were standing off a village at several hundred yards. Anyone know what they were using? I also watched a doco on 'snipers' on the History Channel recently where, again, the latest weapon of choice in the sniper units was a long, heavy barrelled weapon. Might have even been a manual weapon.

And another thought; I remember reading that the old water-cooled Vickers machine gun, circa WW1, set the standard for automatic weapon accuracy over 1000 yards, for many years. <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />