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#153263 - 10/26/08 03:39 AM Long-term water purification
MichaelJ Offline
Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 114
Hello,
I'm in the process of choosing a water filter. Basically I plan to use it like a regular counter-top filter (I currently use a Brita), but I want it to be usable in the event of a long-term emergency. My local water source would be rain, snow and a nearby creek.

A neighbor recommended an RO (reverse osmosis) system but I believe those require a pressurized system and clog rapidly in less than "clean" water.

The only one I've found that seems to fit the bill is the Berkey System. Does anyone have any experience with these? The Berkey Light seems to be the obvious choice, though the other models in stainless steal look really good.
Are the other options out there?

Thanks,
Michael

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#153266 - 10/26/08 04:06 AM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: MichaelJ]
LED Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1474
Been using the Travel Berkey (w/black filter elements) at home for a little while now. (I house sit quite a bit and wanted something portable) Its a great filter, simple to use and clean, and works exactly as advertised. (It really does remove food coloring) IMO the Travel Berkey is good for 2 people daily use. Anything more I'd go for a larger model. Got mine from these guys.

http://www.jamesfilter.com/

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#153269 - 10/26/08 04:44 AM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: MichaelJ]
Nicodemus Offline
Paranoid?
Veteran

Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 1341
Loc: Virginia, US
I have heard great things about Big Berkey and British Berkefeld filters, and they would fit the bill of a countertop filter system. They're gravity filters so there's no need for any great amount of pressure.

The more particulate matter you clean out before you run the water through the filter the longer the filters will last. But with filtration, long term will be determined how much water you run through them, how clean the source is, the filter capacity, whether or not they can be cleaned and so on. Even after all of that, the more replacement elements you have, the better off you will be for long term filtration.

A filtering pair of Black Berkey Filter Elements will filter 6000 gallons of water (3000 gallons per filter). Long term will depend on how many people you need to filter water for, the volume of water per person per period of time you want to be able to filter and so on.

DIY Big Berkey Filter courtesy of AlphaRubicon and Daire. With this link and a little work you can save a hundred dollars or more. These are not as pretty as the Stainless Steel Big Berkeys, or even the Plastic ones, but what you save in cost can be used to purchase more filters.

_________________________
"Learn survival skills when your life doesn't depend on it."

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#153287 - 10/26/08 01:26 PM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: Nicodemus]
eric_2003 Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 56
That Berkey water filter looks pretty interesting. I could not find on the website how many microns it filtered down to, but it was definitely at least 0.3 microns, probably 0.2 microns if they also tested for the smallest bacterium. The actual number would be interested as it could then tell you if it removed free viruses as well.

Does anyone know if there is a carbon filter core to it as well? I would imagine the carbon filter component would "wear" out faster than the Berkey filter itself, but they claim 100% removal of VOC's as well, which I would think comes from some sort of filter element.

Eric

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#153289 - 10/26/08 02:21 PM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: eric_2003]
Nicodemus Offline
Paranoid?
Veteran

Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 1341
Loc: Virginia, US
If you go to the New Millennium Concepts Site (the makers of Big Berkey filters) you'll find in the FAQ why they don't give micron ratings.

Essentially they say that there are two different rating systems; International (absolute) and U.S.(Nominal); and it has led to confusion in the past. You can decide for yourself whether it sounds legit or not. If it's such a big deal I'd include both, but instead New Millennium decide to provide neither. Also, due to "Proprietary This" and "Trade Secret That" type of language they don't say what materials the filters are made of or contain.

What Millennium Concepts will say is this: "the Black Berkey® elements remove greater than 99.9999999% of pathogenic bacteria such as E.coli. To our knowledge, no other personal filtration element can match that capability. In fact, the Black Berkey® elements are so powerful, they are unique in their ability to mechanically remove food coloring from water."

Also, while Millennium Concepts doesn't mention activated carbon and chemical filtration with the Black Berkey Filter Elements specifically, they list many VOCs (Volatile Organic Compounds) that are removed by their filters.

Since I wrote all that I figured I'd offer the standard disclaimer that I'm not affiliated with Millennium Concepts or Big Berkey in any way. I'm simply interested in the product and my interest in what the filters can do was piqued enough for me to track down the information.
_________________________
"Learn survival skills when your life doesn't depend on it."

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#153291 - 10/26/08 02:43 PM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: Nicodemus]
Brangdon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 1204
Loc: Nottingham, UK
Are filters the best choice for long-term? With a UV treatment, if you have a long-term solution for electric power (eg solar panels) then the UV lamp should be good for a long time (eg SteriPen claims 8,000 x 1 litre treatments). Won't any filter inevitably get clogged before that?
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Quality is addictive.

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#153294 - 10/26/08 03:14 PM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: Brangdon]
Nicodemus Offline
Paranoid?
Veteran

Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 1341
Loc: Virginia, US
In some ways I like the SteriPen and in others I don't.

My main concerns with the SteriPen are; One, that with UV treatment you're still drinking any sludge you didn't filter out by other mechanical means; and Two, electronics seem to fail me often even though I take very good care of them.

Using filters like the Big Berkey you have the container and the filter elements to deal with. Whereas with something like a SteriPen with rechargeable batteries you have the Pen, the Batteries, the Charger, and the Solar panel that need to function.

That's just my two cents though. I could be wrong.

Truthfully, I'd really like to have both. LOL
_________________________
"Learn survival skills when your life doesn't depend on it."

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#153297 - 10/26/08 03:20 PM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: Nicodemus]
Nicodemus Offline
Paranoid?
Veteran

Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 1341
Loc: Virginia, US
On another unrelated note, I noticed that the Berkey Filter Elements need to be primed, and they suggest doing this with pressurized water (from a faucet). There is an alternative priming method, but it appears to be much less effective.

This makes me start to consider other methods of water purification such as Slow Sand Filtration.
_________________________
"Learn survival skills when your life doesn't depend on it."

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#153307 - 10/26/08 03:54 PM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: Nicodemus]
Lono Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 1013
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
I've had my eye on one of the Katadyn Endurance series filters - they start at $169 and go up to $1200 depending on gallons per minute, but they all appear well built, with long warranties and good throughput. http://products.katadyn.com/brands-and-products/produkte/Endurance_Series_23.html. The Katadyn Pocket for example is $240, pumps 13,000 gallons at 1 quart per minute, screens to 0.2 microns, and appears to have metal moving parts, and a 20 year warranty. Replacement filters are appropriately enough just about as expensive as the device itself. Compare this to a Katadyn Hiker filter, all plastic, same 0.2 microns, same throughput, but lighter and more suited if you're mobile / hiking. Still, the hiker weights 11 ounces, the Pocket 20 oz - not much difference in weight, alot of difference in gallons treated, 13,000 vs. 200, it might be a good idea if you're using it in a home instead of on the trail. Several in the Endurance series appear capable of integrating with pressurized water systems too. At the high end there's the Expedition, 4 gallons a minute, but 11 lbs and $1200. And there are several gravity filter solutions as well, as low as $169.

To my eye the Pocket looks interesting, it would appear that the pump handle is directly inline rather than off to the side, which should make pumping water somewhat easier than with the Hiker model. I think I'll get a Pocket for my long term supplies.

Disclaimer: I've never set eyes on any of these filters except a Hiker, which I've used for several seasons and like alot. I don't work for Katadyn or any supplier etc.


Edited by Lono (10/26/08 04:26 PM)

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#153316 - 10/26/08 06:31 PM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: Lono]
MichaelJ Offline
Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 114
I once stayed in a jungle lodge in Ecuador that used ozone to keep drinking water safe. They had a 55-gallon drum and an ozone generator hooked up to a solar panel. Whenever the sun was out, ozone was bubbling through the water. This worked great at keeping anything biological out of the water. The raw water we used though was completely free of chemicals (fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides). I live in an urban area and if the water ever goes out, my surface sources are all suspect. Even rainwater coming off of a roof is suspect of arsenic and a few other nastys. I don’t think ozone or UV does anything for chemical contamination, which is why I’m leaning toward the filtering route. Another option would be to dig a well, but I don’t think the city would allow that.
Thoughts?


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#153345 - 10/27/08 01:53 AM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: MichaelJ]
SheetBend Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/18/03
Posts: 26
Loc: California, U.S.A.
Try the Sawyer water PURIFIER. It is working well with my tests, and the literature statistics are impressive.
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Luck & Chance favor those who are prepared.

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#153357 - 10/27/08 07:26 AM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: Nicodemus]
LED Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: Nicodemus
On another unrelated note, I noticed that the Berkey Filter Elements need to be primed, and they suggest doing this with pressurized water (from a faucet). There is an alternative priming method, but it appears to be much less effective.

This makes me start to consider other methods of water purification such as Slow Sand Filtration.


The priming is easier than it sounds. I'm thinking it could be done using a 1.5L water bottle in place of a sink nozzle but as with anything I'll have to try it to be sure. Basically, you turn the filter element upside down and fill it up with water until it "sweats" beads of water for about 5 seconds.

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#153371 - 10/27/08 02:37 PM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: LED]
jdavidboyd Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/20/06
Posts: 78
Loc: Hudson, FL
We purchased a Royal Berkey, with the black filters, a few months back, and it works great!

We used to buy bottled spring water, in 2.5 liter containers, and go through 2 to 3 of those a week for drinking water.

The Berkey filtered water tastes better, and I believe we've already payed for it, or very close.

I would give anyone a heartfelt endorsement for a Berkey water filter. Easy to use.

Priming was easy, just held them up to the tap for a few minutes. The alternative method is to use a sport bottle, and that worked well as well. I tried each method on of the two filters I had. The tap was a little easier, more pressure, but both work great now.

_________________________
What's so funny 'bout peace, love, and understanding?

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#153378 - 10/27/08 03:32 PM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: LED]
Nicodemus Offline
Paranoid?
Veteran

Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 1341
Loc: Virginia, US
Ah, maybe by squeezing the bottle to deliver the pressure needed to prime the filter?

Good idea!

If you try it, please post the results.
_________________________
"Learn survival skills when your life doesn't depend on it."

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#153454 - 10/28/08 03:47 AM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: MichaelJ]
BigCityHillbilly Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/19/07
Posts: 63
I can't help but wonder what ya'll have to say about the "First Need" water purifier (filter?) by General Ecology. I've seen this particular model on the shelf at REI. It comes with a small bottle of blue dye, and you're supposed to run a drop of dye through the filter prior to drinking the water to make sure that the blue dye gets filtered out. If the dye shows up in the water after the water's been filtered, it means that the filter is "caput." I'm not exactly sold on the "First Need" because it seems like it would be something of a hassle to perform this blue dye test everytime you need to drink some water. "Steripen" sounds like a better deal, but I don't know if I'd be willing to stake my life on it. Has anyone ever tried the steripen? I'm not exactly sure how I'm supposed to categorize the Steripen because it doesn't really purify the water of toxic chemicals and thus it cannot be called a purifier, but on the other hand, it comes with a solar charger, it's very small and compact, and it doesn't weigh very much, so maybe Steripen is the way to go when it comes to water purification gadgets.

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#153575 - 10/29/08 12:49 AM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: BigCityHillbilly]
Nicodemus Offline
Paranoid?
Veteran

Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 1341
Loc: Virginia, US
Regarding the First Need Purifier, it looks interesting. However, I must admit that I don't know what "Mechanical Chemical Removal" is or whether that's a fancy way of saying "Activated Carbon Chemical Removal".

As for the idea of the First Need Purifier as a long term water purification, at only 125 gallons per filter the whole system seems pricey.

_________________________
"Learn survival skills when your life doesn't depend on it."

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#155213 - 11/14/08 03:11 PM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: Nicodemus]
stretch555 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 3
Yea, the Priming was cake. As far the berkey filters go, the hardest part of putting it together was snapping the Lexan top and bottom halves of the Berkey Light together. And by hard I mean it took me about 7 minutes to finally get it to snap. I was a little worried about breaking it even though I know supposedly you really can't.

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#155324 - 11/15/08 03:19 PM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: MichaelJ]
snoman Offline
Member

Registered: 09/22/02
Posts: 181
I, too, have a Berkley filter and like it. The one I bought is the stainless steel one with four black filters. I wanted a way to filter water that didn't need power, and the Berkley's reputation was what sold me on it. I use it every day.
I also got the Post Filters for it, mainly for removing fluoride. My city, like many municipalities, adds fluoride to our water to help our teeth. After reading many doctors and dentists warning about fluoride, it bothered me enough to do something about it. I'd recommend doing a search of the health consequences of having fluoride in your drinking water. Quite a few doctors are saying fluoride is more toxic than lead, and slightly less so than arsenic. Read your tubes of toothpaste - the part where is says don't swallow this stuff - and if you do, call your local poison control center. Just what you want to mix into your kids Kool-Aid, right?
I went to one of our city council meetings to bring this to their attention, armed with many notes and petitions from doctor/dentist groups and ask that it be stopped, only to be told by the lady with the ugly glasses that their documentation proves it's safe. She asked me if I was a doctor. I said I wasn't, but that I did know how to read. I, again, tried to show them the petitions I brought, only for her to reiterate how safe fluoridation was. I said to her "So I'm supposed to believe a politician over some thousands of doctors saying just the opposite, huh?" After a few seconds of silence, I just walked out.

We are truly led by idiots!

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#155364 - 11/15/08 09:43 PM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: snoman]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
"We are truly led by idiots!"

Of course! What intelligent person would get into politics?

From the online American Heritage Dictionary: "2. An official who is rigidly devoted to the details of administrative procedure."

“Some are able and humane men and some are low-grade individuals with the morals of a goat, the artistic integrity of a slot machine, and the manners of a floorwalker with delusions of grandeur.” (Raymond Chandler)

Sue

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#155837 - 11/21/08 02:49 AM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: snoman]
stretch555 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 3
Originally Posted By: snoman
I, too, have a Berkley filter and like it. The one I bought is the stainless steel one with four black filters. I wanted a way to filter water that didn't need power, and the Berkley's reputation was what sold me on it. I use it every day.
I also got the Post Filters for it, mainly for removing fluoride. My city, like many municipalities, adds fluoride to our water to help our teeth. After reading many doctors and dentists warning about fluoride, it bothered me enough to do something about it. I'd recommend doing a search of the health consequences of having fluoride in your drinking water. Quite a few doctors are saying fluoride is more toxic than lead, and slightly less so than arsenic. Read your tubes of toothpaste - the part where is says don't swallow this stuff - and if you do, call your local poison control center. Just what you want to mix into your kids Kool-Aid, right?
I went to one of our city council meetings to bring this to their attention, armed with many notes and petitions from doctor/dentist groups and ask that it be stopped, only to be told by the lady with the ugly glasses that their documentation proves it's safe. She asked me if I was a doctor. I said I wasn't, but that I did know how to read. I, again, tried to show them the petitions I brought, only for her to reiterate how safe fluoridation was. I said to her "So I'm supposed to believe a politician over some thousands of doctors saying just the opposite, huh?" After a few seconds of silence, I just walked out.

We are truly led by idiots!


What a shame that's how people react to someones attempt to look out for the greater good. That's bold of you to make that attempt though. good for you!

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#155842 - 11/21/08 03:25 AM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: stretch555]
Jakam
Unregistered


Hawaii has no flouride, right? I mean, Oahu, at least. I lived there for many years, no dental problems that could be even remotely traced back to lack of flouride, in fact no dental problems at all.

Maybe you could get data from their municipal water board or whatever they call it. That's 1 mil people living fine without.


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#155873 - 11/21/08 02:14 PM Re: Long-term water purification [Re: ]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Um, I know more than a few Hawaiians, and not everybody there has healthy teeth to be sure. They ain't quite as bad as the UK, but they aren't really any better than most other places, from what I've seen anyways.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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