Hi everyone - - Most of us have probably heard the advice that 'cotton kills'. That is, - except for hot summer weather,- cotton is not a good choice in outdoor clothing. It will retain moisture close to the skin helping to chill the body. - Because of this, once there is the possibility of colder and/or wet weather I stick to synthetic inner and outer layers. (I also plan to purchase some quality wool this year when weight/bulk isn't a factor.) - - My question is this - has anyone found studies related to the effectiveness of cotton/poly blend fabrics for outdoor use ? I have quite a few military type cotton/poly BDU pants. They are fairly tough, easy to find, reasonably priced (and can be dirt cheap if bought used in a surplus store), and I find all the pockets to be handy when outdoors. Since used by the military, I wouldn't imagine this cloth material to be absolutely horrible - - but who knows. I haven't had any luck finding studies on its performance and would appreciate any input you could provide. Regards, - -

I love utilities, wear them pretty much every day.

And if it is cold, I add wool long johns. If I need more, I put a pair of sweats over that.

Keep in mind, military contracts are awarded to the lowest bidder.

The coldest I've ever been in my life was at night at Camp Pendleton, after an 8 mile hump. My camies were soaked with sweat. If I didn't have a dry set with me to change into I probably would have gotten hypothermia.

If I only had one set of clothes, it would be wool.

Traditionally cotton has been used for the outerlayer and is still the best in dry-cold conditions (0°F and below) and cotton breathes better than synthetics. When tightly woven it's excellent at wind breaking. Sir Wilfred Thomason Grenfell, a medical missionary to Newfoundland and Labrador said "you could not keep a statue warm by putting a fur coat on it. - Clothing must be windproof but must breathe." so Walter Haythornthwaite created for him a 600 thread-per-inch woven Egyptian cotton fabric named "Grenfell Cloth":

Today it's harder to find winter clothing made of cotton. There is Ventile which seems like the modern version of Grenfell cloth but it's very expensive. I also found this site: http://www.empirecanvasworks.com/arcticanorak.htm but I have no experience with them.

The military use cotton in their BDU to make them more silent. They also blended cotton with nylon for a better wind breaker. The famous fishtail parka from the Korean war is an example. It was made of 80% cotton, 20% nylon. Just before the Gore-Tex revolution, Sierra Designs created their 60/40 Mountain Parka which was about 60% cotton, 40% nylon.

Frankie

Those are my standard for hiking in moderately cool to cold weather. They dry relatively fast, I've forded waist deep and deeper creeks with them on in temps approaching 0 degrees F without problem. In fact, the only beef I have with them is the weight.

I have the older version of Empire's anorak. It's an excellent item. The only drawback is the use of VELCRO on the sleeve cuffs. It is not clear if these are still used or not?
Velcro is miserable in powder snow and clogs rapidly.
Your 0 degree figure can actually be pushed up to 20 degrees. that is the point when cold dry becomes cold wet.

I use polycotton walking trousers all the time. Never wear jeans. Dry out quickly and are reasonable at above freezing to just below.

If it's raining then I put Pak-Lite Gortex over them.

Hi Tigerjaw,

Military Cotton/Poly Clothing will suit a reasonable range of temperatures and environmental conditions but when conditions start to become a little more demanding or extreme then specialist clothing is required.

Most Military Cotton/Poly mixes aren't generally windproof so in cold windy conditions they are pretty useless. By cold I mean anything less than around 10C 50F. In cold and wet conditions i.e. -5 to 10C, 23F to 50F they are very poor choices without a waterproof overtrouser.

There are available windproof military clothing made from cotton garbadine material, being more expensive than general poly/cotton, such as found here at;

http://www.sasskit.co.uk/products/militaryclothing/sassmock.htm

Then there is ventile, which is higher specified than the cotton garbadine. Ventile is either single or double layer. Double layer is generally regarded as being waterproof and windproof. Single layer just windproof. Double layer Ventile is twice the weight of single layer ventile.

http://www.west-winds.co.uk/ventilejackets.htm

Again Ventile is very breathable and some folks will live with its disadvantages when compared to Goretex. Goretex is completely waterproof but it is not as breathable compared to Ventile. So you may end up getting just as damp as single layer Ventile. Ventile is excellent for temperatures below -5C 23F being reasonably dry conditions. Ventile is also very long lasting, tough, easy and quiet to wear and field repairs can be made easily.

I also find that Gore Windstopper or Polartec Windbloc fleece is also very good for high activity cold dry i.e. -5C to 10C conditions.

http://www.jackson-sports.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=154

Goretex jackets are excellent as well, there really is nothing else out there that will protect from the wind and rain for the money. There are also so many different types of Goretex out there with each one specified for slighlty different conditions. I recently got another jacket made from Goretex Saturn, which was on sale. It is comfortable, has easy to handle fabric and is reasonably lightweight.

http://www.wildtrak.com/product.asp?id=1138

Military Goretex usually refered to as ECWS or MVP can be purchased more cheaply if you like camo. This Goretex is pretty good being tough and reliable being manufactured for military conditions but generally doesn't have the refinement of the more expensive civilian Goretex products.

I prefer Merino wool or merino wool/silk for base layer undergarments and a wool pullover instead of conventional fleece midlayer despite the heavier weight.

These tweedy trousers look interesting for that country gent look.

http://www.fifecountry.co.uk/PRODUCT_DETAILS.php?pid=632&cid=29

Thanks everyone - and especially to "Am Fear" for your input on this. I bow hunt and the early part of the season for elk just ended in my state. Weather varies a great deal in the mountains this time of year. I have synthetic hunting pants that are soft and have a fine fleece feel to them, but they can get a little warm climbing up and down the mountains during days which are often sunny & hot. I find my military cotton/poly BDU pants to be much more comfortable. But, with the possibility of a small rain or wind storm blowing in and colder temps at night, I had wondered at the wisdom of my choice. I do carry synthetic long underwear as part of my emergency gear. Think I'll reserve the military BDUs to only the very warmest and earliest part of the season (mid to around the end of Sept). I'll stick to the synthetics & wool after that time of year. Regards, - -

Good information, all; thank you.

Interesting to think of cotton as extreme cold wx gear. I guess I've been inculcated in the "cotton kills" mentality to the degree that it shocks the system a bit to think of cotton in the cold.

Regarding poly/cotton, the US Army abandoned poly/cotton field uniforms in the early eighties and went to "nyco" (nylon/cotton) instead. The old OG 501 poly/cotton field uniforms tore easily, weren't warm in the winter, and didn't breath well in the summer. The nyco BDU's (now being replaced by nyco ACU's) were FAR tougher, were warmer in cold wx, and breathed a bit better. Speaking of tough, I have a pair of BDU pants issued in 1982 that have seen a lot of hard use (military, work projects, hiking, camping, etc.) that are still more or less wearable. (My wife doesn't regard them as particularly wearable. I regard them as merely "well broken in.")

The problem I've had with nyco BDU's is that they do NOT dry quickly when compared to 100% nylon pants. They're great pants in fair wx, but I don't wear 'em if there's going to be snow on the ground, rain in the forecast, or a lot of other wet scenarios like stream crossings and meadow slogs. Here in California, in the mountains even if the night is -15C, the day may be +5C (or more). Cotton, poly/cotton, and nyco generally aren't good options in snow country here.

I've found that 100% nylon lightweight hiking pants are lighter, dry very quickly, and are pretty tough (not nearly as tough as BDU's, but pretty tough). The 100% nylon pants were ideal for my trip to humid Japan last summer for both hiking and general travel wear. Any cotton items I wore didn't dry out overnight, by my nylon pants dried quickly and well. For "heavy" XC travel (a lot of brush, thorns, etc.), the 100% nylon pants are too light; they snag, sometimes tear, and don't offer much penetration protection against thorns. Of course in really heavy thorns, BDU's aren't all that much protection either, but they're far better than 100% nylon hiking pants.

Typical 100% nylon hiking pants are a bit light for cold wx, but layering long johns underneath helps for mildly cold wx. Given the wide temperature swings here, layering is key. In cold wx, I'll carry lightweight long johns, heavy weight long johns, nylon pants, full zip fleece pants, and full zip GoreTex pants, which I can layer/adjust as needed. For the upper portion of my body, I'll do something fairly similar: wicking T shirt, wicking turtleneck, fleece shirt, sweater, fleece vest, fleece jacket (or down if extremely cold), and GoreTex Jacket. I also layer for my head: lightweight fleece hat, heavyweight fleece hat, and fleece-lined GoreTex hat. I also have a heavy fleece hood and fleece face mask for truly cold wx. I also have liner gloves, fleece convertible mitten/gloves, and GoreTex overmitts with fleece liners.

I believe nylon will melt into wounds too, although perhaps not to the degree that polyester will; I'm not sure. The US Army issues Nomex (I think that's spelled correctly) uniforms for flight crews (aircraft crashes and severe burns go together). Nomex supposedly does not melt into wounds.

Natural fabrics like wool and cotton don't melt into flesh, something to think about, particularly with gloves which could easily catch fire while cooking. I have convertible fleece mittens/gloves which I like for cooking. Just pull the mitten portion outward and then up and back and the mittens convert to fingerless gloves which are great for dexterity. I wear some thin liner goves underneath, so my skin isn't comepletely exposed but I can still feel.

While I like my fleece gloves, I'd be in potentially deep doo-doo if they caught fire while cooking. Had I to do it over again, I would buy wool convertible mitten/gloves or wool fingerless gloves. I may even buy some wool ones even though I already have the fleece ones and just use the fleece for day trips where I don't plan to cook. Fleece is generally lighter than wool, and snow doesn't bond to fleece as much as it does to knit wool.

Hello,

This is my first post in this forum and writing in english is not really easy for me, but I think that I could perharps give some response to the first question.

First you could get good advices about cotton in winter in the book of Garrett & alexandra Conover "snow walker's companion, winter camping skills for the north". They will describe anoraks made from "egyptian cotton" by Empire Canvas Works.

If you want to know all the story about Gabardine (from Burberry's), Grenfell and Ventile you could read the book from and english professor Mary Rose : "Invisible on Everest - innovation and the gear makers". You have good explanation about these specials windbreaker and water resistant cloths.

Some interesting advices about grenfell cloths and cotton for jungle's war:

http://www.lostworldsinc.com/Grenfell_Cloth_Trench_Coat.htm

You could also see the klattermusen site in sweden. They have some cotton jackets in "Eta Proof" this a kind of ventile made in Swizterland. You could see "rimfaxe"

http://www.klattermusen.se/start.php?lang=EN


I have, like other friends, a jacket from SASS. They are very wind resistant and could resists some hours under the rain, good deal.

http://www.sasskit.co.uk/products/militaryclothing/sassmock.htm

This not "real Ventile". The owners says that the the cloths come from USA and the quality is very good. You could find extra long staple cotton in USA, equal or better than "egyptian cotton" the name is "sea island cotton". I like a lot this jacket.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gossypium_barbadense

I know that a lot of people say "cotton kill", especially with underwear, and I think that it is very often the truth. But, you could have for underwear netsuit from Brynje : these cotton underwear were with Hillary and Tensing on the Everest. Thes "netsuit" was "standard equipment" for scandinavian armies and russian special troops.

http://www.brynje.no/public/index.php?set_language=en&cccpage=historikk

So cotton,is perharps "not the best" but It could be useful. It is very good for antarctic expeditions, and it is good for underwear if you are a soldier : cotton doesn't melt on the skin like other fire resistant synthetic (nomex, kermel....).

During "falklands/malouines/malvinas war" (england vs argentina) in eightys a british destroyer (sheffield ?) was destroyed by a missile exocet. A lot of soldier were burned because they wore "polypropylen" underwear. These underwear were warmer, cheaper, easier to clean than cotton or wool...but polypropylen has a very low melting point. I think that US soldier have discovered this fact in Irak against IED.


sheffield

"The fires on these ships did result in one clear change, which was the shift away from the nylon and synthetic fabrics then worn by British sailors. The synthetics had a tendency to melt on to the skin causing more severe burns than if the crew had been wearing non-synthetic clothing. The official report into the sinking of Sheffield, recently disclosed under UK Freedom of Information laws after an extensive campaign by ex-RN personnel,[8] severely criticised the ship's fire-fighting equipment, training and procedures and certain members of the crew.[9]"



Apologize for my english.

PS : A big article with a lot off illustrations about Grenfell and Ventile gear. Sorry this is in French...

french article

Merci pour les liens et bienvenue sur le forum / Thanks for the links and welcome to the forum.

Frankie

Actually, your English is reasonably good. Far better than my French.

Thank you for the good information.

IMHO the expression "cotton kills" comes from mountain rescue teams etc who rescue persons clad most unsuitably in cotton jeans and t shirts etc.
Such clothing is of course suitable only for fine weather.

Cotton clothing of reputable manufacture, designed for cold conditions, such as the ventile garments refered to above is quite suitable.

Cotton long underwear looses its insulating properties if wet, it is therefore totally unsuitable (and may well kill) if the wearer gets wet. Wool or synthetic fibres would be much more suitable.

Cotton long underwear (tops and bottoms) is very suitable for cold dry conditions, such as in unheated homes , vehicles or workplaces, or in case of fuel shortage, failure of heating plant etc. I would also wear cotton long underwear for outdoor work or gardening etc were there is little chance of geeting wet.
Cotton is moderatly priced, can be hot washed or even boiled without damage, and is far more comfortable to wear than wool or synthetics.
Such articles dont seem to be sold in the UK, I had to purchase from the USA.
Here in England it does not often get cold enough for long underwear to be required, though I consider it prudent to keep a good supply just in case.

There are some very important caveats that should go with this advice. The biggest one is - don't perspire. If you aren't going to be exerting yourself and don't perspire when you sleep, cotton can be acceptable.

In my case, this is never true. I sweat freely at slight exertion and sweat heavily in my sleep. Cotton longjohns are no-go for me since I load them with moisture almost no matter what I do. (I can't even sleep in my own bed in cotton because I am so damp.)

The book COLD COMFORT (don't have it handy to name the author) about 20 years ago explained to me why I was cold at the end of a warm day while jeeping in the Colorado mountains. Changed my outdoor life for the better.

I wear 100% cotton and poly/cotton BDU pants for outdoor stuff but for cold, I have the longjohns to wear underneath. Both type BDU pants are better than jeans since neither hold as much water. Even the 100% cotton BDU pants because they are fairly thin. (but I always wear polypro shorts underneath)

Personally, I do not care for the cotton-poly blends for outdoors use, but YMMV. NyCo beats it in all ways but cost. However, cotton-polyester is much more suitable as a general purpose outdoor fabric than ordinary short-staple coarse-weave fabrics. Long staple cotton in very fine weaves, usually with some sort of DWR finish, is just a whole different topic and IMHO prone to some pretty extreme opinions on performance (both ends of the spectrum).

So let's drop Ventile and similar fabrics out of the discussion for now. I will note that my first-hand experiences with those type of fabrics, while limited, have been generally favorable, but I have realistic expectations - they are not really GP do-it-all fabrics.

Cotton/Poly is more about durability and so forth than anything else. 50-50 NyCo has been around a lot longer than an earlier poster mentioned. That blend is far superior to cotton-poly blends for most conditions, but there is more to the story... Take 2 different US military clothing items, both 50-50 NyCo, both readily found surplus: D BDU trousers and Field Trousers. The performance in windy/cold conditions is dramatically different in favor of the field trousers. Why? Weave. The D BDUs are twill; the field trousers are sateen. Durability is about the same, but the cold wx performance of the sateen makes it seem like an entirely different material than the twill (and it is).

BTW, neither will "melt" on you like pure nylon or polyester - part (only part) of the reason it is a blend is to provide reasonable protection against that from happening from flash burns. Performance is more like cotton in a flash fire.

Anyway, I digress - 50-50 NyCo sateen clothing that still has its Quarpel water repellent treatment intact performs incredibly well - it is STILL my cloth of choice except for very hot conditions, and I can pretty much afford anything I really want. Surplus clothing (any blend) is very unlikely to have any useful Quarpel treatment remaining. Re-treatment with a suitable commercial product is something I'm finally forced to experiment with (my DW insists on laundering my gear too frequently...). Jury is out on what is "suitable" so far.

NyCo does NOT dry as quickly as 100% nylon, to be sure, and there are conditions where I just absolutely prefer 100% nylon trousers and windshirts. But no one fabric does it all; most of us just compensate for what we are accustomed to using, according to the individual choices we make and conditions we experience.

If you like the poly-cotton value-performance, use it - it's not bad stuff, regardless of MY preferences. Any outdoor clothing fabric for temperate to cold use is improved with a decent DWR finish freshly applied, so you might want to consider polishing up your gear that way. No rec from me as to which product to use - my experiments are strictly on NyCo.

<edit> Epic fabrics (which can be about anything material-wise, as long as it is treated with Nextec's propitiatory process) may be the best soft shell stuff so far. I think I would really like NyCo Epic as an outer layer. Think I'll wait for the post-season sales, though... <end edit>

HTH,

Tom