Hi everyone - - Most of us have probably heard the advice that 'cotton kills'. That is, - except for hot summer weather,- cotton is not a good choice in outdoor clothing. It will retain moisture close to the skin helping to chill the body. - Because of this, once there is the possibility of colder and/or wet weather I stick to synthetic inner and outer layers. (I also plan to purchase some quality wool this year when weight/bulk isn't a factor.) - - My question is this - has anyone found studies related to the effectiveness of cotton/poly blend fabrics for outdoor use ? I have quite a few military type cotton/poly BDU pants. They are fairly tough, easy to find, reasonably priced (and can be dirt cheap if bought used in a surplus store), and I find all the pockets to be handy when outdoors. Since used by the military, I wouldn't imagine this cloth material to be absolutely horrible - - but who knows. I haven't had any luck finding studies on its performance and would appreciate any input you could provide. Regards, - -

I love utilities, wear them pretty much every day.

And if it is cold, I add wool long johns. If I need more, I put a pair of sweats over that.

Keep in mind, military contracts are awarded to the lowest bidder.

The coldest I've ever been in my life was at night at Camp Pendleton, after an 8 mile hump. My camies were soaked with sweat. If I didn't have a dry set with me to change into I probably would have gotten hypothermia.

If I only had one set of clothes, it would be wool.

Traditionally cotton has been used for the outerlayer and is still the best in dry-cold conditions (0°F and below) and cotton breathes better than synthetics. When tightly woven it's excellent at wind breaking. Sir Wilfred Thomason Grenfell, a medical missionary to Newfoundland and Labrador said "you could not keep a statue warm by putting a fur coat on it. - Clothing must be windproof but must breathe." so Walter Haythornthwaite created for him a 600 thread-per-inch woven Egyptian cotton fabric named "Grenfell Cloth":

Today it's harder to find winter clothing made of cotton. There is Ventile which seems like the modern version of Grenfell cloth but it's very expensive. I also found this site: http://www.empirecanvasworks.com/arcticanorak.htm but I have no experience with them.

The military use cotton in their BDU to make them more silent. They also blended cotton with nylon for a better wind breaker. The famous fishtail parka from the Korean war is an example. It was made of 80% cotton, 20% nylon. Just before the Gore-Tex revolution, Sierra Designs created their 60/40 Mountain Parka which was about 60% cotton, 40% nylon.

Frankie

Those are my standard for hiking in moderately cool to cold weather. They dry relatively fast, I've forded waist deep and deeper creeks with them on in temps approaching 0 degrees F without problem. In fact, the only beef I have with them is the weight.

I have the older version of Empire's anorak. It's an excellent item. The only drawback is the use of VELCRO on the sleeve cuffs. It is not clear if these are still used or not?
Velcro is miserable in powder snow and clogs rapidly.
Your 0 degree figure can actually be pushed up to 20 degrees. that is the point when cold dry becomes cold wet.

I use polycotton walking trousers all the time. Never wear jeans. Dry out quickly and are reasonable at above freezing to just below.

If it's raining then I put Pak-Lite Gortex over them.

Hi Tigerjaw,

Military Cotton/Poly Clothing will suit a reasonable range of temperatures and environmental conditions but when conditions start to become a little more demanding or extreme then specialist clothing is required.

Most Military Cotton/Poly mixes aren't generally windproof so in cold windy conditions they are pretty useless. By cold I mean anything less than around 10C 50F. In cold and wet conditions i.e. -5 to 10C, 23F to 50F they are very poor choices without a waterproof overtrouser.

There are available windproof military clothing made from cotton garbadine material, being more expensive than general poly/cotton, such as found here at;

http://www.sasskit.co.uk/products/militaryclothing/sassmock.htm

Then there is ventile, which is higher specified than the cotton garbadine. Ventile is either single or double layer. Double layer is generally regarded as being waterproof and windproof. Single layer just windproof. Double layer Ventile is twice the weight of single layer ventile.

http://www.west-winds.co.uk/ventilejackets.htm

Again Ventile is very breathable and some folks will live with its disadvantages when compared to Goretex. Goretex is completely waterproof but it is not as breathable compared to Ventile. So you may end up getting just as damp as single layer Ventile. Ventile is excellent for temperatures below -5C 23F being reasonably dry conditions. Ventile is also very long lasting, tough, easy and quiet to wear and field repairs can be made easily.

I also find that Gore Windstopper or Polartec Windbloc fleece is also very good for high activity cold dry i.e. -5C to 10C conditions.

http://www.jackson-sports.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=154

Goretex jackets are excellent as well, there really is nothing else out there that will protect from the wind and rain for the money. There are also so many different types of Goretex out there with each one specified for slighlty different conditions. I recently got another jacket made from Goretex Saturn, which was on sale. It is comfortable, has easy to handle fabric and is reasonably lightweight.

http://www.wildtrak.com/product.asp?id=1138

Military Goretex usually refered to as ECWS or MVP can be purchased more cheaply if you like camo. This Goretex is pretty good being tough and reliable being manufactured for military conditions but generally doesn't have the refinement of the more expensive civilian Goretex products.

I prefer Merino wool or merino wool/silk for base layer undergarments and a wool pullover instead of conventional fleece midlayer despite the heavier weight.

These tweedy trousers look interesting for that country gent look.

http://www.fifecountry.co.uk/PRODUCT_DETAILS.php?pid=632&cid=29

Thanks everyone - and especially to "Am Fear" for your input on this. I bow hunt and the early part of the season for elk just ended in my state. Weather varies a great deal in the mountains this time of year. I have synthetic hunting pants that are soft and have a fine fleece feel to them, but they can get a little warm climbing up and down the mountains during days which are often sunny & hot. I find my military cotton/poly BDU pants to be much more comfortable. But, with the possibility of a small rain or wind storm blowing in and colder temps at night, I had wondered at the wisdom of my choice. I do carry synthetic long underwear as part of my emergency gear. Think I'll reserve the military BDUs to only the very warmest and earliest part of the season (mid to around the end of Sept). I'll stick to the synthetics & wool after that time of year. Regards, - -

Good information, all; thank you.

Interesting to think of cotton as extreme cold wx gear. I guess I've been inculcated in the "cotton kills" mentality to the degree that it shocks the system a bit to think of cotton in the cold.

Regarding poly/cotton, the US Army abandoned poly/cotton field uniforms in the early eighties and went to "nyco" (nylon/cotton) instead. The old OG 501 poly/cotton field uniforms tore easily, weren't warm in the winter, and didn't breath well in the summer. The nyco BDU's (now being replaced by nyco ACU's) were FAR tougher, were warmer in cold wx, and breathed a bit better. Speaking of tough, I have a pair of BDU pants issued in 1982 that have seen a lot of hard use (military, work projects, hiking, camping, etc.) that are still more or less wearable. (My wife doesn't regard them as particularly wearable. I regard them as merely "well broken in.")

The problem I've had with nyco BDU's is that they do NOT dry quickly when compared to 100% nylon pants. They're great pants in fair wx, but I don't wear 'em if there's going to be snow on the ground, rain in the forecast, or a lot of other wet scenarios like stream crossings and meadow slogs. Here in California, in the mountains even if the night is -15C, the day may be +5C (or more). Cotton, poly/cotton, and nyco generally aren't good options in snow country here.

I've found that 100% nylon lightweight hiking pants are lighter, dry very quickly, and are pretty tough (not nearly as tough as BDU's, but pretty tough). The 100% nylon pants were ideal for my trip to humid Japan last summer for both hiking and general travel wear. Any cotton items I wore didn't dry out overnight, by my nylon pants dried quickly and well. For "heavy" XC travel (a lot of brush, thorns, etc.), the 100% nylon pants are too light; they snag, sometimes tear, and don't offer much penetration protection against thorns. Of course in really heavy thorns, BDU's aren't all that much protection either, but they're far better than 100% nylon hiking pants.

Typical 100% nylon hiking pants are a bit light for cold wx, but layering long johns underneath helps for mildly cold wx. Given the wide temperature swings here, layering is key. In cold wx, I'll carry lightweight long johns, heavy weight long johns, nylon pants, full zip fleece pants, and full zip GoreTex pants, which I can layer/adjust as needed. For the upper portion of my body, I'll do something fairly similar: wicking T shirt, wicking turtleneck, fleece shirt, sweater, fleece vest, fleece jacket (or down if extremely cold), and GoreTex Jacket. I also layer for my head: lightweight fleece hat, heavyweight fleece hat, and fleece-lined GoreTex hat. I also have a heavy fleece hood and fleece face mask for truly cold wx. I also have liner gloves, fleece convertible mitten/gloves, and GoreTex overmitts with fleece liners.