Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#148316 - 09/10/08 08:16 PM Re: A couple of videos I saw today [Re: Jeff_M]
Paragon Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/21/07
Posts: 231
Loc: Greensboro, NC
Attorneys are notorius for asking loaded, complex, and presupposed questions in order to shape their argument. Questions such as these oftentimes cannot be answered with either a yes or no answer.

Yes or no -- are you still beating your wife?

Jim
_________________________
My EDC and FAK


Top
#148421 - 09/11/08 01:03 PM Re: A couple of videos I saw today [Re: Paragon]
Doug_SE_MI Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/05/08
Posts: 35
Loc: Michigan
The classic loaded self-defense question -

Do you think that you could have escaped the situation by some means other than shooting?

As soon as a prosecutor starts selling hypothetical alternate actions you could have taken, you are done...

Doug

Top
#148494 - 09/11/08 05:36 PM Re: A couple of videos I saw today [Re: Doug_SE_MI]
TheSock Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 471
Loc: London England
Originally Posted By: Doug_Botimer
The classic loaded self-defense question -

Do you think that you could have escaped the situation by some means other than shooting?

As soon as a prosecutor starts selling hypothetical alternate actions you could have taken, you are done...

Doug


Absolutely; don't ramble, don't volunteer any information you don't have to and never hypothesise. I gave my two answers to the theoretical ones a laywer might ask fuller than i would for the sake of brevity here.
In reality my answer to both would have been 'no' and then leave it up to the lawyer to prove otherwise. I don't have to give a medical opinion.

The Sock
_________________________
The world is in haste and nears its end – Wulfstan II Archbishop of York 1014.

Top
#148524 - 09/11/08 08:48 PM Re: A couple of videos I saw today [Re: TheSock]
7point82 Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 478
Loc: Oklahoma
IMO, like many other things in life, you need to find a balance. In this case the balance in between 1)saying nothing or 2)getting diarrhea of the mouth.

This is also one of those issues where the local legal & political climate can influence what is appropriate.
_________________________
"There is not a man of us who does not at times need a helping hand to be stretched out to him, and then shame upon him who will not stretch out the helping hand to his brother." -Theodore Roosevelt

Top
#203877 - 06/24/10 08:25 AM Re: A couple of videos I saw today [Re: Doug_SE_MI]
TheSock Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 471
Loc: London England
Resurrecting an old thread in light of recent events:

From the New York Times 1st June 2010

"A suspect who has received and understood the Miranda warnings, and has not invoked his Miranda rights, waives the right to remain silent by making an uncoerced statement to the police”

- quote from Supreme Court Judge on a recent decision.

In other words if you want to remain silent you have to speak up!
Else an unthinking answer you give in response to questioning (easier to do than you think), can be used against you. Say "I wish to remain silent".
The Sock
_________________________
The world is in haste and nears its end – Wulfstan II Archbishop of York 1014.

Top
#203879 - 06/24/10 10:22 AM Re: A couple of videos I saw today [Re: TheSock]
bws48 Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 08/18/07
Posts: 831
Loc: Anne Arundel County, Maryland
Originally Posted By: TheSock

In other words if you want to remain silent you have to speak up!
Else an unthinking answer you give in response to questioning (easier to do than you think), can be used against you. Say "I wish to remain silent".
The Sock


+1, and something else to remember here in the U.S.:

Despite what you see on TV every day, the police cannot take you into the station for "questioning." You can refuse. If they do take you, you are then under arrest, whether they "book" you or not. You must now recognize that you are under arrest: See The Sock's advice and call an attorney.

Also, it is permissible, legal and done all the time for the police to lie to you during any questioning, trying to get you confused, worried and/or trap you into saying something you should not have said. If you are going to be questioned, have your attorney present. If he is not there, see The Sock's advice.

In terms of preparation, IMO you should have the name and number of a reliable attorney available, even if he is not doing criminal law: he will know someone who does. In the meantime, he can protect your rights.
_________________________
"Better is the enemy of good enough."

Top
#203880 - 06/24/10 11:08 AM Re: A couple of videos I saw today [Re: bws48]
roberttheiii Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/13/09
Posts: 350
Loc: Connecticut, USA
While I am not an attorney - thus do not take this as legal advice, if I were taken into custody I would invoke my right to council. Invoking my right to remain silent is almost useless in my readings - the right to council is key.

Also - re attorneys asking "loaded questions", I believe they can only ask what everyone is referring to as "loaded" against a hostile witness. So that would be a witness for the otherside on cross or your own witness who refuses to cooperate. If you see an attorney asking their own non-hostile witness leading questions in real life I think someone may be missing an opportunity to object.

R

Top
#203881 - 06/24/10 11:12 AM Re: A couple of videos I saw today [Re: bws48]
TheSock Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 471
Loc: London England
Very true bss48.
In the UK too the only way you can be made to attend a police station for questioning is by being arrested. So unless they arrest you; say you'll attend tomorrow. And bring a solicitor with you (if he thinks you should go).
Even if arrested you don't have to answer any questions. They can play good cop/bad cop, leave questions hanging, pretend they are about to hit you, all they want. Every interview technique meets a brick wall with silence. If you aren't arrested you can end the interview by simply saying I'm leaving now.
A lot of people go to prison because of what they said to the police. Remember the police can't fine you a penny, or sentence you to a minute in prison. Only a court can do that.
So don't try and convince them you are innocent unless it's provable. Their opinion doesn't matter. Don't try and be clever; don't try and outwit them. Simply shut up!
Here's just some of the statements that sound like they might help you and what they actually mean:
"I didn't want to get involved" is an admission you were involved.
"I didn't mean to hit him that hard" is an admission you hit him too hard.
"I was led into this by my companions" is an admission you were involved in it and are one of a bad company.
"I don't want to answer any questions officer: I'm still in shock from the shooting" is an admission you are not in a fit state to be a reliable witness.
Even not answering a question can be a tacit admission like the hilarous actual cross examination one sometimes sees on the net:
Q: "were you unfaithful to your husband in Los Angeles?"
A: "I wish to use my right to silence"
Q: "were you unfaithful to your husband in San Diego?"
A: "I wish to use my right to silence"
Q: "were you unfaithful to your husband in Hooverville
A: "No"
See the video for lots of other nightmarish examples of how innocent words can come back to haunt you.
The Sock


_________________________
The world is in haste and nears its end – Wulfstan II Archbishop of York 1014.

Top
#203882 - 06/24/10 11:37 AM Re: A couple of videos I saw today [Re: TheSock]
oldsoldier Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 742
Loc: MA
Um, you can be detained for up to 48 hours, I believe, for questioning, without being arrested. I believe the law reads that, providing an officer states otherwise, once handcuffs are placed on a person, a "reasonable person" assumes he is under arrest. Now, here is how that would break down:
You are a witness to a crime. You are suspicious towards LE. You also vaguely fit the description of a suspect (be it clothing, race, car, etc). Officers arriving on the scene secure the scene for THEIR safety. They put handcuffs on you, for their protection, and yours, and state as such-making it clear you are NOT under arrest. They ask you for a statement, which you refuse to give. They then have the obligation to take you in for questioning, knowing that they can only hold you for X amount of time. And, knowing you are a witness, refusing to cooperate. Technically, you ARE committing a crime, by harboring information, thus a criminal. So, doing their duty, they will detain & question for as long as the law allows.
what is said during transport, or anywhere else, is all admissable as evidence. Its all voluntary-the Miranda warning isnt in effect, as there isnt an arrest at that point.
I am not a lawyer, by ANY means. But I believe that the court system has already ruled when one is, or is not, under arrest. You do have the right to remain silent-even is you are just being PC'ed. But if it comes out later that you withheld information, then you will be brought up on charges. So, you silence, in the end, could incriminate you.
_________________________
my adventures

Top
#203883 - 06/24/10 11:50 AM Re: A couple of videos I saw today [Re: roberttheiii]
MostlyHarmless Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 982
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: roberttheiii
Also - re attorneys asking "loaded questions", I believe they can only ask what everyone is referring to as "loaded" against a hostile witness. So that would be a witness for the otherside on cross or your own witness who refuses to cooperate.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean with "hostile witness". I am pretty sure that if you ever find yourself the main focus of the legal system, you will face questions that are loaded, twisted and made to appear YOU look guilty. And not only from an attorney:

The police will also ask you loaded and leading questions, see TheSock's examples or the video.

If you are in deed innocent you need to realize that the police do not think so - or they would let you go. If the police think you did something it is their job to gather evidence to prove that you did it. You may think they also should gather evidence that you're innocent, but that's not how it works. They work as hard as they can to blame whatever wrong that's been done on YOU. Your mouth blabbing away only makes that job easier.

I'm all for being an honest and helpful citizen and helping the police. But you need to realize that if you find yourself in incriminating circumstances the police are not your friend.

That being said, denying the on-scene officer vital information seems rather unproductive, too. Three of them, went that way, one armed with whatever

EDIT: OldSoldier brings up an important point - your legal status and your obligations as a witness versus your legal status when under arrest. Yet another reason to bring in legal councel. It is not about obstructing police work - it is about not worsening your situation by talking yourself into traps set up by professional interrogators.


Edited by MostlyHarmless (06/24/10 12:03 PM)

Top
Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >



Moderator:  Alan_Romania, Blast, chaosmagnet, cliff 
April
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30
Who's Online
5 registered (Tjin, Herman30, Jeanette_Isabelle, hikermor, Ren), 291 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
GaryF, PaulHarney, ghost, Delvis, NiceOldGuy
5335 Registered Users
Newest Posts
Youtube review of Seventy2 Pro
by Jeanette_Isabelle
17 minutes 42 seconds ago
Avatars and Signatures
by Jeanette_Isabelle
04/10/21 01:41 PM
Free stuff from Blast
by Blast
04/10/21 11:49 AM
a non emergency, emergency..
by dougwalkabout
04/09/21 04:30 AM
Hiker missing for two weeks in Zion found alive!
by Ren
04/08/21 11:33 PM
The urban '10 essentials'
by TeacherRO
04/08/21 05:42 PM
Mine vs. theirs - the Get Home Bag
by TeacherRO
04/08/21 05:40 PM
Everyday mask carry?
by Tjin
04/08/21 06:42 AM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.