I'm looking for something lightweight/low bulk to keep the chill off when camping in spring and fall. It seems a lot of people like the poncho liner, but how does it compare to a simple fleece blanket? This would normally be used either backpacking or paddling to the campsite. Temperatures would be 60's-70's F.

1. Will a wet poncho liner still keep a person warm?
2. How small can an offical US military poncho liner be scrunched?
3. How dangerous are flames/sparks/heat to a poncho liner?
4. Anything else you think I should know?

-Blast

I've had a little experience with both materials used in the same application -- a top sheet for use in a hammock.

Neither has been exposed to a sparky wood fire, so I can't comment on that.

But my Thinsulate poncho liner is a LOT lighter and more compact than a comparable fleece blanket.

That's all I can contribute.

Bear

Most excellent question Blast. I've used the fleece blanket many times as I don't have a ponco liner. I've got a fleece sleeping bag big enough for a 6'1'' 240 lb guy crammed into a stuff sack small than a loaf of bread. Yep, it weighs a little, but not much.

As for the spark issue, I know that I have a fleece jacket that I was wearing on one outing and after being around the fire all night, I had several small holes where sparks had caught and actually burned right through. I would imagine the blanket would act the same.

I would interested to see the difference between the two item while wet.

Coleman makes, or rather made a 32 degeree bag called the Canyon that really scrunches down. It's only a 32 degree bag with clothing...trust me, but it works great for early fall trips. I got mine on eBay for really cheap.

Limited experience with either item in camping, extensive experience with both on my bed. The fleece is heavier, relatively bulky when folded, rolled or stuffed, and stays where you put it. The liner is lighter, less bulky, and slicker than snot. One can spend an active night chasing the liner around the bed and onto the floor. Dogs love the liner as a snooze locus, but slide off the bed in hilarious fashion when they jump on it. (I don't get out much). Dirt, debris, and dog hair slide off the liner, and are attracted by powerful molecular forces to the fleece. Neither seems particularly warm when wet (don't ask), but both can be squose squosen wrung out easily and dry quickly. The army apparently designed the poncho-liner system for use in mild wet climates, and I thing it is marginally better. Laced into its poncho, it would be less elusive. And as indicated above, the least expensive, mildest-weather-rated rectangular polyester/nylon bad might be just as effective. No experience with fire issues, but suspect these, like most synthetics, would be quite flammable.

I'm trying to find a replacement for sleeping bags. Sleeping bags have zipper issues, washing issues, bulk issues, etc. Plus I find trying to wriggle my 6'5" - 220lb frame into a sleeping bag inside a bivysack is a pain. I'm lazy in the woods, I just want to throw something over me and fall asleep to visions of ESSBers...

-Blast

I am 6'3" and am happy with an REI Travel Sack. It is a very light 55+ synthetic sleeping bag that stuffs into a small loaf of bread size. I mostly use it totally unzipped as a throw over in warm weather. I think it costs something like $50 - $60.

Okay, from my experience, a poncho and a fleece blanket, at least the ones I use really don't compare well insofaras what I would prefer for a sleeping bag replacement. IMHO, the right fleece blanket is a most suitable replacement, while the poncho is marginal at best.

I refer you to the waterproof fleece products made by riverswest. I've recommended these in the past, and I stand by the product still. These are not your momma's fleece products. They are heavy duty, they will keep you warm and dry, and they will take a helluva lot of abuse. Their product gaurantee cannot be beat. In addition to a number of outer garments I own and have worn in some of the worst conditions the Colorado Rockies could throw at me in February while hunting coyotes, as well as trout fishing in the Blue mountains in spring with torrential rains and 40 degree winds churning the air, I also recently acquired what they refer to as an artillery blanket. It is big enough for me to completely bundle up in ( I am a little bit bigger than you, Blast, both in height and girth), and it was a most excellent ground pad for a recent shooting exercise in miserably wet conditions.

The fleece is actually two thin but tightly woven layers that are bonded together with a breathable but waterproof barrier and reinforcing material. This makes them considerable denser than the typical fleece, but also adds to their durability. The material is nonetheless quite comfortable against the skin, and fairly quiet. It breaks in over time, becoming more supple and less rigid after a few uses and a couple washings.

Check out their website and see for yourself. My product endorsements are very rare, but when I find something that works above and beyond my expectations, something I know I can rely on, I am quite willing to let others know.

http://www.riverswest.com/

I 2nd NH's recommendation. A poncho liner is versatile and very packable. I also 2nd the recommendation that you include the poncho - together they give you several shelter options and are still easy to pack in a small space - about half that of a down sleeping bag in a stuff sack.

I haven't ever used the liner but I've been thinking about getting one for reasons that have been espoused here at ETS.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com did have 2 patterns of liners in their catalogs but I can't find those now. They may still have them on their website although they didn't put it in this latest catalog.

http://www.rayjardine.com/ray-way/Quilt-Kit/index.htm

Ray Jardine's instructions on making an ultralight quilt, lighter, warmer, than most alternatives.

The cat would like the liner.

Thanks benjammin for the heads up on Rivers West, I like the H2P Artillery Blanket that was on the web site. I just ordered one from Bakers and will give it a try as a replacement for my 20 year old military poncho from the corp.

Added note: I do admit, my poncho has served me through many years and is extremely durable. In the cooler weather up north I've had to adjust a little before resorting to a bag but I would like to give benjammin fleece idea a try and see how it holds up against the poncho. The waterproof and durability of the product as well as benjammins recommendations sparked me to look into this.

Blast -

A poncho liner is one piece of military gear that advanced the military so far that an achievement of similar magnitude will never be made again. Well, maybe not, but I'm very fond of mine.

I LOVE my poncho liner. It will roll down to about 10" long and the diameter of a snuff can (or maybe just a tad bigger) if you work at it. Lightweight as you could ask for, has ties built in for use as a shade structure (and of course, tying it into a poncho). I am not sure what the temps get down to in winter in TX, so I'm not going to guarantee it'll keep you warm, but it kept me warm in NC through every season (not to mention in many, many other forests, countries, tents, "hootches", mountains, etc. for eight years of military service). And it's the same one. I bought it at a gun show when I was 16 or 17 and 10 years later she's still with me.

Poncho liner? I'd take it over a wool blanket all day long and twice on Tuesday.

Hi Blast



Is this the low night time temperature or the day time temperature? If its the nightime temperature I wouldn't need either a blanket or Poncho Liner but would use something like a very thin sleeping bag silk liner (if the temperature was in the lower 60s F). A night time temperature from the 50's - 60's F would require the addition of something like a thin merino wool blanket.

I believe that the poncho liner is much more versatile and is an excellent item to have. I have two of my own and take them on all camping trips or even extended road trips that I go on. One bad thing about the liner is that as some already stated it is very slippery and tends to slide of while I'm asleep. But other than that its one of the best pieces of gear I have.

Okay, the poncho liner wins. Benjammin, I've drooled over that RiverWest(?) stuff since the first time you mentioned them, but I think it'd be overkill. I have a military poncho already, combining it with the liner makes the most sense.

The 60-70's are nighttime temps, I just want something I can throw over me while I sleep. Judging from my normal body temp levels, I think I'd be comfortable with this setup down into the low 50's inside the bivy.

Thanks all!

-Blast

p.s. This is the one I'm getting, probably digital camo.

I've heard that some of the civilian repros with Thinsulate are actually better than the military issued ones. Any thoughts on this? Has anyone out there used both and have some "on the ground" experience to share?

Also, not to throw a monkey wrench into anyone's plans, but there are down bags that are lighter than the two pound weight listed on the link that Blast provided. My 32F/0C Western Mountaineering bag weighs 19oz (1lbs, 3oz). It packs small. I unzip it and use it like a blanket if it's warm. Note that lightweight down bags are really expensive. For $21.97 you can't beat the poncho liner.

Thinsulate models are better - I should have mentioned that mine is Thinsulate. At times during my career (formal/standardized schools) I had to use USGI gear, and it wasn't as warm. I'd still take one in a heartbeat, though. Putting it inside the poncho makes it much warmer, as well.

I have an ultra-light bag, too, but unzipped it's maybe 1/3 the size of an poncho liner (not quite as versatile for shade, getting multiple people in, etc.).

C'mon, Blast, go old-school with some woodland camo or tri-color desert instead of that light grey/slightly darker grey #$%^!!! Seriously, you should be well served by a poncho liner, regardless of color. The poncho liner is near and dear to my heart - make sure and let me know how you like it.

I was off touring the USS Turner Joy today, so am coming into this a little late, since Blast has already made his decision. The right one, by the way...

Good point and suggestions. I've always thought of poncho liners as multi-use, fairly inexpensive, make-do and semi-disposable, and down bags as specialized tools for backpacking, far more delicate but comfortable to much lower temperatures. I also have heard that keeping down bags stuffed may be harmful to them. BTW, those WM bags are amazing, aren't they?

Jeff

i used a poncho liner in 1969..i thought it was warmer
lighter,"softer" and not as slick as the newer ones.

any particular way you work at it? I like the poncho liner but don't like the bulk.

thanks.

blast
Wiggys has had poncho liners on sale and they have a good rep.
poncho liners

The Usual Disclaimers yada yada.

Lee

Yes, the Western Mountaineering bags are pretty nice. A bag you can take down to freezing that weighs just slightly more than one pound and stuffs to the size of a smallish loaf of bread is kinda cool. WM has an even lighter bag, but I wanted the versatility of the full length zip so that the bag can be used in hotter wx. You are correct that you shouldn't store down in such a way that is compressed. If compressed for too long period of time, the down doesn't bounce back, and it loses some of its insulative capacity.

The poncho liners are a good bet though. In my time in the military and subsequently I've never run across a person who had a bad word to say about them. I don't think they're good for specialized, high altitude mountaineering outings, but dang they'd be good in moderate weather for an awful lot of applications. Plus, for the price, why not get several -- for you BOB, your car kit, for your workplace, etc? Combine it with a poncho, and you got yourself a nice little sleep system.

Thanks! Good to have confirmation from someone who has actually "been there and done that."

First you have to break it in. New poncho liners are very stiff. Washing it a couple times might help it overcome that initial rigitiy, as will repeated use and stuffing into the bottom of a pack. Once its nice and soft it'll get much smaller, much easier. Or maybe mine's just so old there isn't much left...

So basically, first kill all the loft in the insulation?

It keeps me warm. YMMV.

Given your....er..."jumbo size", Blast, let me suggest what's worked for me. Many fabric stores (in my case Hancock Fabrics, a national chain).. but I've seen them on the internet too.. sell 100% polyester fleece for $6.00 or less per yard (at a 58-60" width). I got a couple at 2.5 yards, and use them all of the time when camping: alone, or as an extra layer in my sleeping bag when it's too cold.

I've found various thicknesses, but for me the thinest was warm enough for spring and early fall camping. I cut a slit in a shorter piece (1.5yds) and use it as a poncho or a blanket, too.

Given your location and where you are most likely to venture, I would have to concede that the liner is more likely ideal for your needs. For what I do and where I like to go, it just isn't enough. But it would be overkill here in Florida, and where you are as well.

I'll say this, though, for it being advertised as fleece, it is as sturdy as any tarp I've ever come across. I'd have no worries using it as a ground cover under a tent, or as an awning over the top. Short of pulling out a knife, you are not going to rip, tear, cut, or puncture that stuff otherwise. It also has problems with open flame, but I've yet to burn a hole through any of mine, despite sitting beside some fairly big pine and fir bonfires at elk camp. Even if you do manage to put a hole in it or tear it, the warranty covers repair/replacement.

A poncho liner is a versatile thing, and would probably suit me better here. Any other fleece material I know of is going to be less versatile by far than either the liner or the Riverswest stuff.

In an ideal world, I guess it would be best to have both?

Not exactly. With the Riverswest, you need to work the fibers between the fleece layers a little, kinda like breaking in a good lasso.

My fleece suit has gotten a lot more supple with use, and yet still keeps me warm and dry in the mountain snow.

I just cram mind into little stuff sacks, maybe 4" x 5" or so...

+1 NightHiker. All the way down the list.

Inside the house, my whole family sleeps with them at night instead of bed sheets. We have many different patterns, including my 20 YO pattern that got a hole in it from the dog and had to be repatched with a camo hanky on both sides. haha

You might just run it thru a drier on low heat/fluff a couple of times. Won't do much for the slippery thing, but it might soften it up a big. Mine are pretty soft just from years of use. But still slippery...

I don't think they ever lose their "slipperiness"...

Nope, it seems to be built in...

Interesting thing, insulation. I thought that thickness/loft was all that mattered in clothing insulation. That was the rap on down, that it was the lightest, most compressible material that would re-establish loft and insulation value. But that is clearly not true for asbestos, where a thin layer is enough to insulate a steam pipe. And it is clearly not true of fleece, or wool- some wool or fleece jackets will keep me as warm as a down jacket will despite being much less lofty.

And the poncho liners are not very lofty at all, and still quite warm.

This all gets analyzed out in building insulation by R-values assigned to various insulation products. Is there a similar way to evaluate clothing insulation values?

All this talk of poncho liners got me thinking: What is a good choice for the poncho itself? I recall my old USGI poncho as being a heavy, rubberized-feeling thing. Is there a good, specific model of poncho, maybe of ripstop nylon or even sil-nylon, that would tie in well with a poncho liner but still be lightweight, that anyone can recommend?

Also, any suggestions on modifying the liner with an opening to fit over the head? I dimly recall someone making a model like that.

Thanks.

Jeff

Speaking of silicone-impregnated ripstop nylon, check the GoLite "Ultra-Lite Poncho/Tarp" for a mil poncho replacement.

I need the poncho as well as the liner. Anyone have a link to a poncho too?

Jeff McC and all..i posted a photo of the poncho liner
i had a head hole cut in for using on canoe trips..
then got a bunch of very good replys to the effect that
i could of just made a slit or a four way cut and not
of had a liner with a BIG hold in it..
ALSO--i think it was Brigade Quatermaster that sells
a kit for making the liner into a sleeping bag--

"...i think it was Brigade Quatermaster that sells
a kit for making the liner into a sleeping bag..."

Yup.

Never used one myself, but I have heard good things about it...

Does anyone know what the difference is between a standard GI Poncho and a GI "Style" or "Type" Poncho?

The difference varies with the brand of the non issue poncho. Generally the USGI versions are better than the imitations, but there are some good non USGI ponchos out there.

kifaru woobie FTW!!!!!

pricey, but state of the art in woobies

packs down to about the size of a nalgene or so

kifaru.net/woobie.htm

Depends on who made the knock off. Sometimes, it is the same pattern and matieral, same quality of work, just done over seas. Other times, quality and materials are the same, the dimensions are just inch or two off in any given direction. Or vice versa. Sometimes it is very old school rubberized canvas.

In short, can you be more specific? Is there a particular knock off you have in mind?


That avatar seems very familiar... and from Missouri.... You know, we don't bite here, unlike the other forum where there hungry shamblers. *laughs*

The term GI "type," and similar, can mean an el cheapo ripoff, a factory second, a first class item that is part of an overrun, or just about anything else. Let the buyer beware...

Actually nothing too specific in mind, maybe something like these... Majorsurplus.com

The reason I ask is because I see one of these ponchos in my future. I was just curious if I should spring for the "real ones" or be good to go with something like what's in the link.

Ironraven: I have noticed there are a few guys who frequent both forums. Ironically they seem to make some of the most well informed posts I read(yourself included).

I have the British Army MVP (Moisture Vapour Permeable Goretex) Poncho. Its expensive, but overcomes the problem of getting just as wet underneath the poncho as outside the poncho especially in warmer more humid conditions. Its quite heavy though at 900 grams, being made from a very durable material (similar to heavy duty 3 layer Taslan Goretex). Sil-nylon has no place in any garment wear, being non breathable, as far as I'm concerned.

http://www.militarykit.com/products/special_offers/british_army_dpm_mvp_poncho.htm

Yeah, but we do get bit on occasion...

-Blast, also on ZS

Actually there is a clo value for clothing. I need to look up how it is measured, but the NATIC group (clothing dudes for the DoD near Boston) uses it when developing new clothing for the military.

Bill

+ 1 on the woobie.

Light, warm, small when in its own stuff sack.
I take it with me everywhere I travel....

We went tent camping last week, first time in a while. Waaayyyyy too warm for our 20 and zero degree mummy bags, so we just used one of my old poncho liners. Perfect for the low 50's (give or take a few degrees) nights here in the Pacific NW. Along with a little snuggling of course.

Side note: my old (bought in 'bout '88 or 89) little dome tent finally blew out a zipper. Gonna have to look for a suitable replacement now. Lotsa memories in that tent...