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#140612 - 07/21/08 04:58 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: CityBoyGoneCountry]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 1913
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry
I'm going to take the opposite approach of most others who have posted. I think your primary concern, first and foremost, should be stopping power. You don't get something for nothing. The only way to accomplish low recoil is by taking away power.

I respectfully disagree. It doesn't matter how powerful the shot was that missed the target. And IMHO, the difference in real-world stopping power between .45, .40, 10mm, 9mm, 357sig, etc. is not as great as many would make it out to be. Certain calibers may be better at a given task (i.e., 357sig may be better for barrier penetration, .45 may be better if using non-expanding ammo, etc.), but if you are not expecting to run into one of these more specialized conditions routinely, these calibers are more similar than distinct in capabilities. Unless you need barrier penetration, 357sig is reportedly no better than 9mm although it is definitely "more powerful", but it will kick a lot harder and cost you a lot more for the ammo.

Recoil can be reduced in other ways besides reduction of power. My .45 is easier and more fun to shoot (less obnoxious feeling recoil) than my .380. Light and small handguns will have more perceived recoil than than a larger heavier one (unless this statement is taken to ridiculous extremes, like comparing a .22 to a .357mag)

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#140613 - 07/21/08 05:04 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: red]
CityBoyGoneCountry Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 369
Don't put too much confidence in the legal system. Their goal is not truth and justice. Their goal is to win the case, period.

True story:

When I was 15 years old one of my older brother's friends threatened me with a baseball bat inside my own home. He was an adult and he was bigger than me. So I picked up another baseball bat and I hit him before he could have a chance to hit me.

I thought I acted in self defense then, and 20 years later I still think I acted in self defense. But I was arrested and convicted of assault with a deadly weapon. The aggressor spent some time in the hospital then went home, and I, the defender, went to a desert in Nevada until I was 18 years old.

I have much respect for human beings, but I lost all respect for the legal system 20 years ago.

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#140614 - 07/21/08 05:15 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: Russ]
GarlyDog Offline
τΏτ
Old Hand

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 776
Loc: The People's Republic of IL
Originally Posted By: Russ
Dogs trained for the job are expen$ive,


Compared to what? A serious injury? Dying? One of your family members dying? A lawsuit from injuring a perp? Everything is relative.

Originally Posted By: Russ


...require ongoing training and a knowledgeable handler.



True. But so do guns.

Following through on training for either choices is key.

Being able to find, and ready a gun in the dark, after being woken up from a deep sleep is pretty tough. Again, any dog will help tip the odds in your favor by alerting you before they are busting down your bedroom door.

Also, I thought I read somewhere that most home invasions are committed by more than one person. Truly the odds are not in your favor if this is true. A good dog is huge advantage.

_________________________
Gary








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#140617 - 07/21/08 05:41 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: GarlyDog]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
A dog or two would be great, but I cannot afford the investment of time that dogs deserve and require, much less their added expense. Plus I would need training that I also cannot afford.

Frankly I think the dogs-for-survival topic deserves its own thread.

Without going into detail, note that in my scenario nobody actually got through into my home. Like the flex zones of a car body, there are inexpensive measures you can use to upgrade your door and window areas to slow down penetration. This gives you increased response time.

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#140620 - 07/21/08 05:56 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: GarlyDog]
BrianB Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/08
Posts: 99
Re: Stopping Power.

What stops an aggressor is one of three things:

1. They decide to stop themselves. They may do this at the sight of an armed defender, or they may do this because they don't like getting shot. Either way, nobody but the aggressor has control over this one. No handgun hits hard enough to influence this factor.

2. They stop due to loss of consciousness from blood loss. This can take time. Really, no handgun is going to cause much more speed in blood loss versus any other. Achieving rapid blood loss means hitting high COM and busting the heart or other organs or major arteries. Unless psychological factors come into play, blood loss won't necessarily stop someone fast enough to prevent them from harming you, as the FBI found out in the Miami shoot out.

3. A hit to the brain or upper part of the spine can cause incapacitation from CNS damage. The spine is well protected from a frontal shot, and a very narrow target. The brain is protected by a skull, which is a thicker and tougher than you might expect. The head is also a moving target, and in most circumstances, trying to shoot a head under stress is irresponsible, as you dramatically increase the chances of missing, and the bullet is going somewhere.

So, what does that leave as a criteria for a defensive handgun?

Really, it leaves a shotgun. Handguns aren't ideal tools for self defense.

Except that a gun you have with you is better than one you don't. Handguns offer portability.

Once you have sufficient power to penetrate the chest wall and skull, you've got the ability to poke holes in the bits that may cause someone to stop aggressing.

When you go about poking holes in the aggressor, you want to do it with due speed and accuracy. You don't need a major caliber to do this. What you need is a caliber that will poke a hole repeatedly and quickly, and that you can control.

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#140621 - 07/21/08 05:57 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: GarlyDog]
Russ Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 4553
Loc: SOCAL
I have no problem at all with folks getting a dog as a pet. If it happens to be a good watch dog which will alert you in time to wake up and be better prepared all the better. Some folks though expect their pet dog to be a guard dog which is a major step up from a watch dog.

My comments were to the statement:
Quote:
Local media interviewed a US marshal subsequently. His recommendation for home security-not a gun, not an alarm: a dog. Most bad guys just avoid places with dogs in them, and even if no one breaks in, you have a dog.
No gun, no alarm, just a dog. The US marshal was advocating letting the dog do all the heavy lifting and that's a lot of responsibility for a "pet".

Police K-9's go for about $5K as an untrained youngster with good bloodlines. Check out the pricetag on a Schutzhund qualified German Shepherd. The same breeder will sell you a "pet quality" dog from the same litter for less money, but don't expect the same drives and nerve as the dog that LE buys.

Folks who want a dog as a "pet" could go nuts with a high energy GSD looking for something to do. They need constant exercise and training. If you want a pet you may as well go for the pet quality dog to start with and get a gun to back him up. Taking it a step further, what if the first thing a bad guy does after breaking into your home is shoot the dog in front of him that's making all the noise? If all you have is the dog you are out of options.

I like dogs, but all I want the dog to do is wake me up and then stay out of the way. I do not want Rin Tin Tin getting in my line of fire. If a bad guy avoids my home altogether because of the dog all the better, but I'm not going to rely on that single animal to do all the work.

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#140623 - 07/21/08 06:06 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: Russ]
BrianB Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/08
Posts: 99
Dogs are excellent alarm systems. Provided you train them not to bark when it's not necessary.

Of course, alarm systems are excellent alarm systems too.

Reinforcing doors and windows is good.

Putting up a fence, even a low one, is good.

Planting prickly plants under windows is good.

Motion sensor lights outside are good.

Keeping a charged cell phone in the bedroom with you at night is good.

Doing all of the above may prevent a problem before the need for a gun comes into play. If that need does arise, the presence of all of the above measures can only reflect on you in a positive way, and may provide partial evidence of intent of the bad guy.

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#140625 - 07/21/08 06:32 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: BrianB]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 1913
Loc: Colorado
My dogs are a three-pronged defense. First, the Newfoundland runs at you for a joyous licking, but accidentally knocks you down when she jumps up and puts her paws on top of your head. Many people run when they see her coming because she looks more like a black bear than a dog. Then the German Shepard distracts you by snarling and barking ferociously. Then the Jack Russel Terrier sneaks up during the distraction and bites you in the nuts.

;-)

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#140631 - 07/21/08 06:56 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: BrianB]
CityBoyGoneCountry Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 369
Originally Posted By: BrianB
1. They decide to stop themselves. They may do this at the sight of an armed defender, or they may do this because they don't like getting shot. Either way, nobody but the aggressor has control over this one. No handgun hits hard enough to influence this factor.


The higher the caliber, the more it's gonna hurt. The more it hurts, the more likely you're gonna stop. I would like to meet the man who can take a .357, or a .45, or a .44 to the gut and still keep fighting.

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#140638 - 07/21/08 07:16 PM Re: Getting a handgun and all that goes with it [Re: CityBoyGoneCountry]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2184
Loc: Deep south... Carolina
Originally Posted By: CityBoyGoneCountry
[quote=BrianB]
The higher the caliber, the more it's gonna hurt. The more it hurts, the more likely you're gonna stop. I would like to meet the man who can take a .357, or a .45, or a .44 to the gut and still keep fighting.


I'm deciding to join on this a bit late, but here's some recently developed thoughts I have. Currently, I've been on the Trauma Service at a hopsital in downtown Detroit. On my patient list, at this exact moment, I have 10 patients with gunshot wounds. Over the last 3 weeks, I've seen probably close to 50 patients with gunshots.

People I've seen survive:
shots to the head (including those that penetrate the brain)
shots to the chest
birdshot
buckshot
multiple (10+) gunshot wounds

So, based on these 50 or so encounters, I've decided that it's not number of shots, or caliber, it's SHOT PLACEMENT. The ONE person that's died on my shifts had a head wound with brain material coming out. In contrast, I have 3 patients currently with head wounds that are not dead, including a person that took a hit in the forehead. The take home message is, in a SELF DEFENSE SITUATION A) hit what you aim at, B) aim at parts that stop the person (you don't always have to kill) and C) shoot until they stop. Many of my patients kept running after being shot multiple times. Someone could easily run to you, not away.

Again, idle musings based on treating lots of shot people.

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