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#139908 - 07/17/08 12:57 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: nursemike]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3556
Loc: Spring, Texas
Quote:
Their take was that dog tasted a little gamy, okay with enough garlic.


Hmmm, the dog I ate in China was some of the best meat I've ever had. It tasted like high-quality lamb to me. It did have a strong flavor, which I like in meat.

-Blast
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#139914 - 07/17/08 01:28 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: Fitzoid]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2183
Loc: Deep south... Carolina
Originally Posted By: Fitzoid


Also, feral dogs are very different than farm dogs, which are used to people and generally friendly. Feral dogs that are unafraid of people are the worst.

I don't know what farm dogs you've been around, but every damned one in Missouri would chase me on my bike for blocks. It got to the point where it was either A) bring my rifle, or B) stop riding in the countryside.

Firecrackers maybe, if you can get them lit and exploded soon enough. Otherwise, I'd second the shotgun (or maybe a .22 in semiauto) methods.

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#139921 - 07/17/08 02:15 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: MDinana]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...chase me on my bike for blocks..."

When I was still working, I used to ride a bike for exercise (and in order to pass the annual pedal and puke test). Dogs started chasing me, so I put some clips on top of my handlebars and clipped an old wooden baton in them. Rolled more than one yapping nipping canine with it. Of course, in CA at least, a police baton in possion of a non-LEO is a felony. But an aluminum (or wood) baseball bat, that is a horse of another color. And the dog still rolls...
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#139922 - 07/17/08 02:20 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: MDinana]
nveagle Offline
Accuracy is final
Stranger

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 2
Loc: Nevada
I was a member of the K-9 Unit at work for 4 years. Our dogs were trained to recognize hand signals. This was done because if we were wearing gas masks due to deploying chemical agents we could still give commands to the dogs. The mace/pepper spray we used did not affect the dogs, and it was much stronger then the stuff you buy off the shelf. Granted, we were not spraying the dogs directly but were using gas in confined areas. I would not use a spray for dogs.

For one dog and you don't have a gun: 1st, Wrap your weak arm with anything available, i.e. jacket, sweater. 2nd, Hold your arm out and feed it to the dog. with his mouth ocupied get him off his feet so he can't thrash/rip your arm as much. 3rd, Disable the dog by what ever means you have, punching, taking out eyes etc. Sounds brutal but if a dog is looking to attack it is best for you to control the attack as much as possible. Mind you it is best to avoid the attack if possible but if there is no option...

For more then one dog...better get a gun.

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#139924 - 07/17/08 02:30 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: nveagle]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"... Disable the dog by what ever means you have, punching..."

I agree with you. But I once did hand to hand battle to the death with a wild male siamese cat (pay attention here Blast) at about oh dark thirty, in the kitchen of my former home. I lived, the cat may have died later, but I am not sure. Despite my best efforts, I could not even knock that sucker out. I finally gave up, bleeding from numerous deep scratches and punctuers, kneeling in a puddle of blood (mine) and cat pee. Cat ran away. Critters are tough!!!
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#139926 - 07/17/08 02:37 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: OldBaldGuy]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
So,in extremis, dog firmly attached to me against my will, with others waitng for an opening to join the party, what specifically should I do to stand a fighting chance of survival with each of the following:

1. A Hiking staff

2. Fixed blade knife

3. Stun weapon

4. Pistol

5. Dog spray






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#139927 - 07/17/08 02:37 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: OldBaldGuy]
nveagle Offline
Accuracy is final
Stranger

Registered: 07/17/08
Posts: 2
Loc: Nevada
Like I said it is best to avoid the attack, no one gets hurt, but if you have no choice then it is best to take away the dogs best attack which is the thrashing/ripping that do the most damage. I for one would not want to fight a dog hand to hand but that is the way we were trained due to the fact that we had to avoid having our dog become a victim of that counter to our attack.

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#139928 - 07/17/08 02:39 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: MDinana]
BrianB Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/08
Posts: 99
Things to keep in mind about dogs:

1. They are a little stronger than us, pound for pound.

2. The end with the teeth can do a lot of damage to flesh and bone, especially with breeds with a triangular shaped jaw with strong muscle attachments. (Pit Bull Terriers get this from the terrier part; all terriers have strong bites out of proportion to their size.) Keep in mind that if you present a dog your hand wrapped in a jacket or shirt you are still very likely to have blood drawn and have serious damage to bones, nerves and tendons. I've seen a small fifty to fifty-five pound Malanois female (lol, it censored the female dog word) bite completely through a police training sleeve and bloody the volunteer during training. Your shirt and jacket aren't nearly that strong, and that dog didn't have a particularly strong bite.

3. They lead with their face. Probably not the advantage you'd think, since in many breeds, that means the head/face are pretty well protected. Also, see, number 2 above. Teeth hurt. However, this also means when you're dealing with just one dog, a longish stick, like a hiking staff, can be very effective. Rather than swinging the stick, particularly if you're untrained in using long sticks as weapons, use it in a spear-like manner (without leaning into it and losing your balance) to hold the dog at bay. Getting your back to something will help prevent the dog from circling. Aiming that little rubber foot for its mouth is a plus if you can jam it in its mouth forcibly. You don't want to get into a tug-o-war, though, so present point first.

4. They take down their prey like most predators, with their body weight. Look up some videos of police dog training on Youtube. You'll notice the same takedown technique on all of them: Grab an extremity then swing the whole body on a pivot and whip the victim to the ground. Un-trained dogs intent on murder will also do this to get you down to their level. Dogs less intent on murder may go for other body parts, so protect all your dangly bits.

5. Dogs have four feet. This is pretty self evident. It's also their base of power for torquing their bodies to inflict more damage with their teeth. If you can take their legs out of the equation, you can reduce the damage they inflict. MP dog handlers with over aggressive dogs frequently just picked the dogs up off the ground and slammed them into their van before loading them up. Yeah, these guys were poor handlers in my opinion, but it's good to remember that humans have the height and mass advantage and if a dog can be picked up off its feet or be wrapped up if wrestling with it, it can be deprived of a significant portion of its ability to do damage.

6. Dogs are tough. Physically and mentally. No offense intended to those advocating .22s, but if the dog can be dissuaded by a .22, then it probably wasn't a valid threat to begin with. You should generally make ammunition choices for stopping a dog in the same light you would for facing a large, drug-crazed human male. Only a CNS shot will immediately break off an attack. If you're not the one being attacked, you can probably easily close to point blank range and finish the dog. If you're on the receiving end of the attack, good luck with that. Knives are generally worse than a gun.

7. Dogs have sensitive noses. Pepper spray can be effective, especially if the dog hasn't committed to the attack yet. They're probably the best deterrent, provided prevailing winds permit their safe use. They can be less than effective at causing a dog to break off an attack.

8. Dogs have pretty decently-sized brains. Blunt force trauma to the head can rattle their cages, and backed by enough strength can outright kill a dog on the charge. I know of at least one police dog killed by a construction worker with a length of heavy PVC pipe. The guy was exceptionally strong.

9. Dogs can't wrestle for beans. Their legs are inflexible. If you get taken down, try to wrap its rear legs with yours and control its head. Flip on your back and lock it down. Now that you've got it, don't ask me what to do with it. You might try a carotid or tracheal choke on it, but depending on the breed and the strength of its neck, that may be pointless.

10. Dogs in packs are exceedingly dangerous. Even a few neighborhood dogs who are roaming around unattended can be dangerous, when pack instinct sets in. If you get chosen as prey for a pack of dogs, get your back to something, and hope you have some means of keeping them off you.

Given all of the above, I'd suggest the following:

1. Pepper spray.
2. If appropriate, a hiking staff. Remember, poke, don't swing it.
3. If you're carrying a firearm, it should be the same one you'd use for defense against humans.
4. Don't run.
5. If taken by surprise, wrap the dog up and control at least two of its legs (rear) and its head.
6. Expect to get bitten, and expect it to hurt. Take control of the dog anyway. Only the largest breeds stand a chance to take a healthy adult male in a wrestling contest. You can't really train for this one. It's like telling someone to mentally prepare to be cut if they get in a knife fight. Prior experience handling things that bite or being subjected to intense pain in difficult situations helps... but do you really want to get that kind of experience on purpose?


Edited by BrianB (07/17/08 02:44 AM)
Edit Reason: type-o's/removed the b-word lol

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#139932 - 07/17/08 02:58 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: BrianB]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
I forgot that I am highly likely to have on a backpack. I think if I was worried about a dog attack, and I had time, I would take the pack off and try to use it as a shield.

But what then? How do I deal with a dog that has, thankfully, grabbed my back instead of me? How do you persuade a dog to go away? How can you disable a dog so it loses interest in continuing an attack? And if you need to kill it ...?

This thread is getting a bit morbid for me, but if I cannot bug in and have to bug out I want to give this serious thought. I am already thinking about its impact on my BOB gear list.

Thanks.

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#139934 - 07/17/08 03:03 AM Re: Dog defense? [Re: dweste]
BrianB Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/08
Posts: 99
Originally Posted By: dweste
So,in extremis, dog firmly attached to me against my will, with others waitng for an opening to join the party, what specifically should I do to stand a fighting chance of survival with each of the following:

1. A Hiking staff

2. Fixed blade knife

3. Stun weapon

4. Pistol

5. Dog spray



Pray?

1. If the dog is already on you and you have a hiking staff, you've failed to employ it effectively. Assuming you have nothing else available and haven't been taken to the ground, you could try putting out an eye as suggested by one of the articles linked earlier. Let's say the dog has one hand, as that frequently happens. It's going to lower its butt and try to drag you around. Get your feet set so you can't be dragged, then reach in with the other hand and scoop out an eye. Then the other one if it doesn't let go. As it lets go (assuming it does), kick it in the ribs, hard, and yell at it (you're probably already yelling lol). Oh, but you have to drop the staff to do that, and you still have more dogs waiting to get you. You could try a bluff rush at them and scoop up your staff. It may delay the next attack enough to let you get the staff back . . .or it may not. That may not have been the leader. It may have been the sucker they sent in to test you out or distract you. Packs of coyotes have used similar tactics to take out livestock guard dogs.

2. You're screwed. A fixed blade knife is fairly inadequate against multiple dogs, or even one determined dog. Each one has forty-two knives. Each one of those knives will be driven by the full weight of its charging body. Your knife has to find well-protected vital bits to kill one, and dogs have been known to fight and continue to do serious damage to people with what would otherwise be fatal knife wounds. For that matter, knives don't cause much trauma. If your knife has a pointy or hard bit on the butt of the handle, you can try hammering the dog that has you on the crown of the head repeatedly. It'd probably be a bit more effective than stabbing.

3. I don't really have an opinion on stun weapons. I've personally been shocked by the hand held arcing type and taken them off the person doing the shocking, but that was in the early 90s, so maybe they've improved. If you're talking Taser technology, then you've basically got a one shot weapon. Eventually it'll run out of current. At best, you can take one dog out for a bit with a taser, but you're out of luck with the rest of the pack.

4. Try not to shoot whatever dangly bit of yours the dog has, and put one (or more) in its head at contact range. Position yourself with your back to something, and proceed to shoot the other dogs. Non-lethal shots will either cause a dog to flee or enrage it. So, I suggest shooting one at a time until it's fled or dead, while keeping an eye on the others.

5. Dog spray may be seen as a goodwill gesture. After all, no dog likes fleas and ticks. :^) Oh, you meant the other type of dog spray! It may or may not make the dog chewing on you already let go. It's definitely worth a shot, though. If you can get to a standoff situation, it may be effective in deterring the pack members that aren't fully committed to an attack, so I'd say apply liberally in that case.

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