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#137899 - 06/27/08 12:10 PM Re: Improvised pepperspray [Re: SwampDonkey]
BillLiptak Offline

Registered: 12/19/07
Posts: 259
If this is happening at work the bouncers need to do their jobs. If there aren't any bouncers then they need to hire some. If its happening on the way home then the lady needs to consider using a taxi or getting a vehicle of her own if she is more interested in adoidance vs. confontation. Or maybe even having a friend drive her.
If she is willing to defend herself (I know it sounds to some here that to not be is foolishness) have her take a basic self defence course. Preferably an anti-rape course. Typically these classes will have a large number of female students making her feel at ease, a lot also have female instructors which will also help.
Thse classes usually teach smaller, weaker opponents (average female) devastating blows/tecniques to disable/stun stronger/larger opponents (average male) then to get outta dodge, sound advice for anyone really.
As far as improvised "weaponry"....
Steel bodied pen, fine point. Stabs to the cheek, neck, throat, bicep, groin, thigh......
Large keyring with 6" lanyard.....key flail. Try and get as colorful/decorative a lanyard as possible. Braid up colored para cord. Won't come across as a weapon and hopefully local police will see nothing askew with lashing out with her keys against a perp trying to mug/rape her.
Grab a can of good old aqua-net for the purse. Make sure she uses some of it before/during her shift. I remember gagging on the stuff when my gran came out, freshly sprayed from the bathroom as a kid. Can't imagine it being any less effective straight outta the can in the eyes/face. Make sure she uses it though, its easier to explain away when its part of her grooming habits as to why she had it with her.
Good safety whistle, blow that sucker as loud as she can as close to her assailants ears. Will deafen/hurt him, while drawing attention to herself. 2 birds with one stone.
I wish the lady the best of luck.

-Bill Liptak

#137912 - 06/27/08 01:57 PM Re: Improvised pepperspray [Re: BillLiptak]
dweste Offline

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
If it really has gotten to the point where assault is a likely occurrence, then help the lady find a new job ASAP.

If it is primarily a matter of dealing with fear, then encourage the lady to develop mental and physical toughness by participating in martial arts, rape defense classes, "verbal judo" instruction, and developing a few of the strategies offered in this thread.

Suggest the lady make as many friends with co-workers as possible; if the problem is common they may welcome mutual aid and support agreements.

Perhaps the lady knows a cute cop or two she can invite to see her place of work for a friendly drink during her off hours, etc.

If the lady chooses none of the above and to remain a physically attractive shrinking violet who telegraphs helplessness, then perhaps psychological counseling can help, hopefully before anything too horrible occurrs.

Finally, it is her life and her choices not yours. Be a friend, but defend your own psychological boundaries by not feeling ultimately responsible for what happens in her life. Once you have done your best, back off.

#137930 - 06/27/08 03:39 PM Re: Improvised pepperspray [Re: dweste]
big_al Offline

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 586
Loc: 20mi east of San Diego
You may tell your friend to carry a small squirt gun filled with Ammomia to use on the DOGs that chase her on her way home. (the sqirt guns is for dogs with 4 legs, officer,that is why it was in my possession.) wink
Some people try to turn back their odometers.
Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way
I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved

#137961 - 06/27/08 11:01 PM Re: Improvised pepperspray [Re: dweste]
priest Offline

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 16
Thanks for the feedback folks

She is a good friend but a very non threatening person. At 110 pounds soaking wet she is not much of a fighter to say the least. As a single mom working two jobs in a new city she has no time for self defence classes right now except what she can do on her own. The bouncers treat her good but she has been approached on the way home by drunk guys on three occasions now and has called me to pick her up on another two because she was sure she was being followed home.

If it really has gotten to the point where assault is a likely occurrence, then help the lady find a new job ASAP.

nice idea, but it doesn’t always work so easy. These days’ people are lucky to have jobs period.

it is her life and her choices not yours. Be a friend, but defend your own psychological boundaries by not feeling ultimately responsible for what happens in her life.

I understand what you are saying, but when we only concern ourselves with what is going on in our own lives then it becomes a sad place to live. When a friend needs help and comes to you for it, then you help them. Otherwise you are not much of a friend to start with. I thought this may be an option worth looking into because I might not always be home when she calls for help.

Today I bought her a jetscream whistle and a surefire E2E flashlight to start. I also bought her some strong cinnamon breath spray that hurts like hell when you get it in the eyes. I went through an attack scenario with her after work and let her shove me back and spray me with it for practice.

Mother f***** it hurt!!. She was long gone before I could open my eyes. I think it will do in a pinch and I guess it won’t be breaking any laws (yet) to carry breath spray. Friday night is busy where she works but I hope she doesn’t need to try it for real. Although I still have red eyes from it I am going to be just fine.

I guess the mix of gasoline, bleach and mad dog 57 sauce will have to be used for stripping paint or sterilizing wounds.

#137978 - 06/28/08 01:16 AM Re: Improvised pepperspray [Re: priest]
dweste Offline

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Re: "it is her life and her choices not yours. Be a friend, but defend your own psychological boundaries by not feeling ultimately responsible for what happens in her life."

Friendship and caring are admirable. Being available for support and not losing your own balance to grief if something happens: priceless.

#137982 - 06/28/08 02:06 AM Re: Improvised pepperspray [Re: priest]
OldBaldGuy Offline

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
At work, she probably has a tray full of something in her hand often. If the assault (and if she is touched, that is what it is, at least where I live) occurs then, toss the load in the bg's face, followed by a good swift kick where it will hurt the most. Then go hide. If on the way home, a really really bright light (100 lumin or so) in the eyes, followed by the above mentioned kick, and then boogie.

Making your own weapon, be it a bar of soap in a sock, or tabasco in a spray bottle, only makes one look like a bad guy in the eyes of the law, and more importantly, the jury. A large ring of keys on a lanyard might be OK tho...

#137986 - 06/28/08 02:51 AM Re: Improvised pepperspray [Re: OldBaldGuy]
Raspy Offline

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 351
Loc: Centre Hall Pa
The thing to remember about improvised weapons is they are just that. Weapons are created from objects that come to hand. Remember if you construct a weapon example the length of hose filled with nuts and bolts or the old biker trick of a belt made of chain that is worn outside the belt loops and the police become involved it's still a weapon and you may go to jail.

If on the other hand use what comes to hand in self-defense it's not a weapon. The object is merely something you picked up. Now if you do want to carry a concealed improvised weapon construct something that appears normal but is effective.

Example a small leather drawstring pouch filled with change. This is merely your way of carrying change the makes one heck of a blackjack. If equipped with longer strings as a flail.

Loose change or a change purse can be thrown as a distraction. The loose change will thrown at the face will cause anyone to duck aside and raise their hands to protect the eyes. Giving you a few seconds to gain a couple of extra steps to flee or an opening to attack. A change purse about the size of a fist is the same as a rock. Traveling at 30 or 40 miles an hour can definitely leave an impression.

A bandanna can be loaded with almost anything as a flail or blackjack. And there is an entire martial arts discipline of using a scarf/belt/strap as an offensive and defensive weapon.

Think the damage a plastic or better yet one of those new eco friendly grocery bags with could do with a can or two inside.

Also a can of cayenne pepper with a loose lid. The active ingredient in cayenne pepper is the ingredient used in pepper spray. This is if pepper spray is illegal in your area. A face full of cayenne will drop almost anyone. Home made pepper spray. Cayenne mixed with alcohol out of a squeeze bottle. Or you can cook down and dry the powder habanero peppers for a stronger concentration.

In fact many non-suspicious liquids can be squirted into the face. While they won’t be as effective as a pepper spray. Things like salt water or acidic compounds such as lemon juice or vinegar can burn the eyes for a temporary case of loss of vision. And there are as many excuses for carrying them.

Probably the best spray bottle to deliver various concoctions is the assorted nasal spray bottles. While you can’t really expect to get much range with a bit of practice 4 or 5 feet is not unreasonable.

Most hair and deodorant sprays have a blinding effect. Honest officer I just happened to be carrying it. When I was attacked inspiration hit. I thought what the heck it might work to help me get away.

There is always the can of coke in a sock for the frequent flyer. Or if you are worried about the metal can a water bottle works just as well. What screener would disallow a common pack as a carry on with a change of cloths including fresh socks and a plastic bottle full of water? Combined makes a decent black jack.

A tightly rolled magazine is a stick. What is paper made out of, “wood” of course?

Canes or hiking staff are self-explanatory. You have a weak knee so need the support.

Take a cap. The old fashion flat driving hats work best. Place several ounces of lead sinkers in the back. Add a small bag of hooks and some fishing line. Hey it is emergency fishing tackle. Grabbed by the bill and slapped smartly across the face of an assailant. Said person will be very surprised when they wake up.

A roll of change held in the fist. It is just spare change. But it definitely increases the impact. A double A mini flashlight can serve the same function. When using these types of items the most effective strike is to hit like a hammer so the hand load hits. A straight punch can hurt the fingers.

Do you carry a carabineer as part of your key ring set up? Those things sure look like a lot like and would work much like a set of brass knuckles. Think about it.

Flashlights even the cheap plastic ones pack a wallop. The batteries supply the weight to make them effective. The big 5 and 6 cell jobs are a very efficient nightstick. The little ones work well in the full fist or kubotan role. High output flashlights like the Sure Fire can have a temporary blinding and disorienting effect especially at night.

Another blinder are those disposable pocket cameras with a flash. If you have ever been in a room with a low level of light when a flash has gone off you know what I mean.

Does anyone remember the old Bic pen commercial where they fired the pen out of a rifle through a pine board? Sure the plastic shattered but the point remained intact. You now have a stabbing weapon.

Then along the same lines are the rat tailed combs and brushes. They can poke quit a nasty hole. And does any of the older crowd remember the fro picks from the 60’s and 70’s. Back then there were places that outlawed them as a concealed weapon, especially the metal tined ones, because they were being used effectively as one.

A 12-inch steel drafting ruler makes a nasty slashing weapon. Two things don’t sharpen or wrap part of it as a handle. Both scream a prepared weapon. You are slashing not slicing. Add some graph or drawing paper to your clipboard along with drawing or drafting pencils as cover.

A clipboard can be used as a shield to deflect an attack. It can also be used to strike edge on.

The list could go on and on. The ideal concealed weapon is not a weapon at all. Just a common ordinary object that can be used as such. So forget the fancy ninja and oriental fighting weapons. Most of those were common everyday farm implements not weapons back then. With the exception of the cap fishing kit and the homemade pepper spray all are normal but effective tools.

These are objects that you could carry among many others. Then there are environmental objects to consider. These can be found anywhere from the country to the city. All it really takes is the proper mindset to realize their potential. It truly amazes me that airport screening is so concerned about such trivial things like nail clippers. The world is full of weapons you just have to reach out and use them.

Most government buildings where the rules are the strictest are loaded. Most have those lightweight plastic and bent rod chairs. You could easily beat someone silly with them. Now days almost every place has drop ceilings. T shaped tracks made of metal supports these. While the main runners are long the cross supports usually 2 or 4 feet long. They are not real heavy so don’t hit like a baseball bat they will cause some damage because of speed. The ends are somewhat pointy and could be used as a stabbing weapon.

Rocks, bottles, chunks of bricks, whatever as impact or thrown weapons.

A piece of pipe or a stick is rather obvious.

A trash can lid is both a defensive device and a weapon. Back in the days of the knights of old the shield number one job was to deflect the opponents weapons but was also used effectively to bash flat into someone or smash with the edge. While the old metal can lids are the best especially when turned to offensive strikes the plastic ones will deflect a strike.

The next time you are sitting around cooling your heels waiting for an appointment take a couple of minutes and look around. What is lying about loose and how it could be used. What can you pry from the walls or ceiling that could be used to slash, poke or swat with. Or doing the same thing while walking down the street. After a few times of doing this deliberately it is amazing how easily it becomes seeing the myriad of objects that surround you that can be used to protect yourself.

Remember anything you deliberately carried for self-defense as long as it has a legitimate purpose the police can ignore it as a weapon. But if it appears to be a contrived weapon you could be in a whole lot of trouble. Do not fancy up or improve the object to make it more lethal. Learn how to use it effectively as it comes out of the box. If it screams weapon you will be looked on as the aggressor not the victim. If you win you will be looked at hard enough as it is. In this current PC world they will give the poor unfortunate criminal the benefit of the doubt. You as the victim defending yourself is considered in a bad light to begin with throw in a weapon or anything prepared as a WEAPON. Well you get the picture. Learn to use the world around you.

Remember C. Y. A. Just in case.

Edited by Raspy (06/28/08 05:03 AM)
When in danger or in doubt
run in circles scream and shout

And always remember TANSTAAFL

#138121 - 06/29/08 08:32 PM Re: Improvised pepperspray [Re: Raspy]

Pepper spray, improvised or not, would have to be damn strong to do any permanent damage. Even at the ridiculous concentrations of some hot sauces these days, I think the worst you would get is swollen eyes, nasal passages and throat. I suppose if somebody were already disposed to breathing difficulties (elderly or severely asthmatic) you could put them in the hospital. You'd need pure capcaicin to do any real damage...but pure cap is a powder and is a powerful alkaline on par with Lye which burns just as bad. I don't think you can buy it over the counter either.

I make liquid spray hot sauce for food (mentioned in another post)and you'd need a pretty good sprayer to propel it very far...it's pretty thick.

If I were going to do this (big if of course), I'd get my hands on pure chili oil extract (can be as hot as 6 million Scoville units last time I checked), cut it with something to make it thinner and then find a car parts store that mixes paint on site. Pay the guy extra to make a spray bomb in the smallest size possible with your oil.

As a Canadian I wouldn't bother though...my interpretation of the law here would make me extremely hesitant. Even though chili oil isn't a weapon it becomes one as soon as you spray it in somebodies face. Same if you smash somebody with a baseball bat.

#138123 - 06/29/08 09:10 PM Re: Improvised pepperspray [Re: ]
JIM Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 1032
Loc: The Netherlands
Just want to point out that there are special spray's available that are not designed to incapacitate someone and those are the colour-marking sprays. Therefore they are completely legal (check first).

They are applied the same way as pepperspray but they foam up on contact with the skin, stopping an attack because the culprit can't see and is surprised by the spray.

Furthermore, they contain a dye, which is visible on the face for about 3 days and helps to identify the bad guy by the police.

I know it isn't much, but it might be enough to distract some one long enough for you to get out of the way.



''It's time for Plan B...'' ''We have a Plan B?'' ''No, but it's time for one.'' -Stargate SG-1

#138131 - 06/29/08 11:13 PM Re: Improvised pepperspray [Re: JIM]

That's a damn good idea.

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