Impossible survival type situation:

I've been lurking this site for some months. I like the discussion here. This is something that I've seen discussed on various blogs and other sites of late, none of which are survival oriented and I'm very curious about what some of ya'll think.

You're suddenly whisked back in time to 1000 AD, somewhere in Western Europe. You have no time to prep, nothing with you but the clothes on your back. What do you do to survive? Think about not only for the first few days/weeks, but sustained, life long survival.

Couple points to keep in mind that I've picked up from other discussions:
You're likely to be much taller than average. You're also going to have immaculate teeth. No scars of any kind... you're going to stick out like a turd in a punch bowl more than likely. Your clothes will be unlike any have ever seen, not just the stich and style but the fabric, colors, etc. Simply blending in will be next to impossible at first.

Even if you're currently able to speak one or more of the languages in Europe today, it won't translate to 1000 AD. The only language anyone would be able to understand is Latin and only the clergy/nobles will be able to speak that.

If you're circumcised, you won't be able to fake it as a christian/catholic.

If you're a woman, well, you basically could either become a prostitute or a nun. You might get lucky enough to find a free peasant type guy to marry.

Discuss!

Welcome.

I think the first thing you do not try to do is meld into society, because you both cannot and also because when you are speaking of what is essentially the Dark Ages, people are very wary of strangers moving into their small little towns and villages.

So, if you are not joining a village, then you are trying, at first to lead an existence somewhat like a hermit. Are we many of us capable of this? Probably not, but what else do we have? If you walk into a village and say hello, they are likely to do you harm. If you are in the area of a small village, then perhaps after they become aware fo your existence, you can begin some social interaction. It's not going to happen quickly. The one thing that you'd be best doing is trying to learn how to implement and demonstrate some low level increases in the level of technology you can show those you do see.

Where you decide to try to lead such an existence, you'd be better off if you know something related to the language. You cannot speak their Old English, even reading Middle English requires a translation and then some struggle, but knowing modern English is closer to speaking that then trying to think you can learn ancient Hungarian.

Flip your tricorder open and say: - Beam me up, Scotty!
If it doesn't work, try becoming a saint in the local religion.

Welcome Newguy!

I suspect that back then, unless you were a high up muckety muck, you pretty much practiced what we call "survival" every day, just to, well, survive...

Read 1632 by David Weber - It essentially puts a small town in that situation. SM Sterling also has a series about an entire town moving back to about 600BC I believe.

For a single person, my guess is they'd be dead in a short time. Strangers were not all that welcome back then.

I go down in history as the single greatest scientist the world will ever know, and guys like Leonardo da Vinci, Isaac Newton, Leonhard Euler, Charles Darwin, Nicolaus Copernicus, Louis Pasteur, James Watt, Nikolaus Otto, Albert Einstein, and the Wright brothers all find other things to do with their lives.

Jim

"Pigmaei gigantum humeris impositi plusquam ipsi gigantes vident" (If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants) - Sir Isaac Newton, in a letter to Robert Hooke, dated February 5, 1676

There was a macgeyver episode on that, season 7 I believe...What do you mean I wouldn't be able to speak their language?? I can kind of speak latin...Ive been taking it for 2 years! Im not really much taller than avarage because I am only 14 so im still 5' 7"...and have tons of scars.

and WELCOME newguy!!

Simple, I look for a house, town quarter or ghetto with Mezzuzahs on the front door. I run up, knock , and say 'HELP! those crazy christians are trying to kill me! A woman lets you in, takes one look at your skinny frame and feeds you. Worked in the 60s after my parent's divorce in a staunchly RC and conservative protestant nieghborhood when all my former friends started beating me up after shcool. 6 weeks of Aunt Yola's cooking and I was beating them up.

Sort of a Planet of the Apes problem of techno-man dropped in a primitive world.

My eyeglasses would cause consternation (at best).
Maybe I'd look for a clockmaker to see if I could get a job improving that technology and put my nearsightedness to use. Teach them about gears, ratios and springs. (I'm quite mechanically inclined.)

Then improve the lute and teach 'em how to rock and roll :-)
And start experimenting with firearms.

I think the actual outcome would be that I'd be dead of dysentery or cholera rather quickly. The King would eventually get my wristwatch. And my eyeglasses would be weighed against a duck to see if they were a witch....

1st thing--find a really big club...

1.Stay away from humans as much as possible. One word out of your mouth and they'd label you a foreigner at best and "possessed of the devil" at worst...result, death by fire, after some horrific torture that is.

2.Get real dirty as soon as possible. A coating of mud ought to do the trick. Make sure your clothes are almost unrecognizable. Your clothes would be cause enough to label you as "WYERD" and a "fraternizer with witches"...result, death by fire, after some horrific torture.

3. Pretend to be dumb and mute. Learn the language by listening only. Practice pronunciation in your lean-to that you've built in a forest. Get really good at begging for scraps, especially tomatoes, since they'll think they're poisonous. (Steal the rest if you can) Work on developing some tools. Now's when you wish you EDC'ed good stuff! If a noble doesn't like the way you look, he'll take your stuff, arrest you...result, death by fire, you know the rest.

4. After years of acclimatization, rescue some VIP with a Heimlich or CPR and say: "An angel came and told me to raise up this dead maid/noble". You will be labeled a hero and paraded around villages as an holy artifact. Lots of food will come this way.

My guess at your chances of survival...1%.

A little different than A Yankee in King Arthur's court!

Hi Red,



The last person convicted for Witchcraft in Scotland was in 1944, her name was Helen Duncan. They didn't burn her though.

1632 is addicting.

A lot depends on how you "arrive." If I popped up with a bunch of people, I'm pretty much SOL. My survival is limited to how fast I can run and avoid pitchforks/arrows/horses/etc. Also depends when you arrive, since being in the wrong clothes could kill you quick just from the weather.

Assuming I survive the first 15 minutes, I think Red has the right idea. Thank goodness I have a knife with me right now, so I could at least fashion a bow/arrow or spear for hunting/fishing. I'm right now in olive shorts and a tank top, so fortunately I'm not in outrageous clothes - I could lose the top real quick, and maybe tear the shorts a bit to look like falling apart pants. Get out of public view unless absolutely necessary. Get something to blend in with (steal if I have to). Deaf/mute works well, beg/steal food (tomatoes, potatoes, any wildlife in the forest).

For me, if I could survive the first month, I'd start working on language. I've taken, at various points in my life, Spanish, French and Latin. Hopefully I'd be understand the occasional word initially; if not, body language probably hasn't changed much in 1000 years. I'm assuming by a year I could probably understand quite a bit. Hopefully in that time I'd be able to get some glasses, since my contacts won't be much good after a few days there, and I'm pretty blind without them. Once I got the language down, it'd be time to hit the road.

Get a few miles away, so that I'd be "new" to the area, and start fresh. Maybe get in with a barber or set up shop as a physician/surgeon. Not the most prestigious job at the time, but it'll bring in some money. Fortunately, I know how to wash my hands, which will keep me from killing as many patients as my competition. If I could be accepted into the society, perhaps gently push some public health measures, start smallpox vaccines (just like Jenner did back in the day, using cowpox or smallpox scrapings), stress the importance of clean water.

I'd also thank the sweet lord and my parents that I'm up to date on my shots, so all I'd really worry about would be smallpox and TB. I'd also thank my Mom that I'm only 5'7", so I should be about the right height.

Some good ideas all around. One critique, most responses seem to be assuming we end up in Europe. What happens when you end up someplace else.



If you ended up in Europe, no tomatoes would be there. Tomatoes came from the Americas, so they would not arrive for another 500 years.

Why is everyone assuming that folks from the middle ages were short. William Wallace was apparently 6 feet 7inches tall. I've seen his sword at the Wallace National Monument at Abbey Craig just outside Stirling. Its huge, being 5 feet 4 inches (162 cm) long. Thats why most folks over here have a little laugh at Mel Gibson playing the part in the film Braveheart. Mel Gibson would be about the same height as his sword!!

Haha!!! I had no idea that William Wallace was so short!

"...I go down in history as the single greatest scientist the world will ever know..."

Man oh man, you must be one smart dude, if you surpass all of those guys...

Because that's where the OP says we are.

And, oh yeah, tomatoes might be hard to find. At least I wasn't looking for corn or coffee in western europe.

No potatoes either, and 500 years until the Germans come up with their beer purity law. And the point of surviving is . . .?????

actually, if i could just get past the language issue and find some clothes, i could probably fit in with royalty or clergy quite easily. think about it: the only people back then who were anywhere close to our modern level of health, education, etc were high nobility. noone else would even likely know how to read, let alone have anything close to a basic high-school education by today's standards. The first thing i'd do is make a b-line for a wooded area, IOW get out of sight. i'd then seek out the nearest monastery to seek sanctuary and clothing. i show that i can write and start copying scripture. i leave with a Bible and get the heck out of Europe. while traveling, vow of silence means i don't have to speak to anyone, thus reducing the risk of giving myself away as a weirdo; monk's garb and possession of holy scripture means i can seek shelter and sustenance at most churches i pass by without too many questions(also might get me that most important second chance if i happen to slip up and do something overtly modern in public).
i beg/steal enough clothes to appear as a member of the upper crust and find a blacksmith. I pay him a few pieces of gold i made by melting the band of my wrist-watch for an axe, bowie, and sword. these are useful anywhere and also much more valuable as barter goods than is gold.
if i manage to reach a port town I set myself up as a merchant. All sorts pass through port cities, so my strange accent would likely seem less unusual. First chance i get i join a ship's crew, a task made easier by my build and knowledge of seaman's knots. i travel the world, live to a ripe old age, and eventually die.

I write science fiction stories and I am involved in science fiction role plays. Therefore several questions come to mind: How did you get there? If it's by technology based time travel, why aren't you able to return? What energy source did you use? Also, assuming you traveled back in time for a reason, did you prepare? Did you tell a fellow time traveler when and where you would be going and when you would be back? That is very important. Did you travel back in time alone, with a friend or with a group? If you did travel with a group, did everyone bring their own time machine in the event something happens to one of them? And, most importantly, did you have a working understanding of temporal physics before you traveled back in time?

One time a man and woman traveled to the ancient civilization of Atlantis. The woman was rescued but, because the man had no understanding of temporal physics, he erased himself from history.

Jeanette Isabelle

Your going to stand out from the first. Unless your uncommonly short, thin, undernourished, dirty, toothless and have very tough hands and feet your going to be a rare bird.

While there may be one or two as tall, assuming your only 6' or so, your going to tower over the crowd. Your likely to be far better in better shape than the average. More muscular and generally healthier. The peasants are strong in a bandy, wiry, enduring sort of way. Your also going to be far more sensitive to cold, dirt, pain, irritations, abuse and hunger.

Clean, well fed, even just relatively so, with teeth after the age of thirty, with soft hands and feet, and wearing shoes? That would make you an exception and pretty much resemble a noble or clergyman.

Modern mannerisms like looking directly at people, standing straight and walking with head held up also makes you look like someone with status. You might try to fol people into thinking you were from the church or a noble. But if the illusion falls through your dead.

In 1000AD it is a tight society. Clergy and nobles split, often contest, power. If your not one of the above or one of the few merchants your with the other 90% of the population, a peasant. Peasants have no rights. They have no recourse or opportunity to redress wrongs. In fact neither clergy nor noble could do any wrong to a peasant. Everything was allowed. Rape, murder, torture. That is unless the clergy or other nobles object.

As a serf your duty is to produce for the landowner and/or church. During any of the many minor and great wars your forced into service by the thousands where your duty is to wear out the main combatants sword arm by allowing they to swing their sword at your unprotected body. Technically your not even allowed to harm your betters on the other side. They were captured and ransomed. After the battle dead peasants weren't often counted. We have little idea of how many fought or dies in many major battles. Dead peasants were dropped into mass graves.

"...bowie..."

Gotta wait a few years for Davy to be born. A big knife you can probably get...

As far as fitting in with the royalty, if I recall my world history, if you ain't related, or don't kick their butts, you ain't gonna fit in...

I was assuming (a dangerous practice), that "we" got poofed there. No prep time, no BOB, no nothing, you are just suddenly "there"...

"...generally healthier..."

Did my BP meds, not to mention Viaga, make the trip with me? If not, I am SOL...

It is more likely you arrived by some technology. Therefore, if you are there, someone sent you or you did so by choice.

Jeanette Isabelle

Hell, at your age they consider you an absolute wonderment. Very few people made it to that age. And with most of your teeth and eyesight too. And walking without a stick. Near about a miracle.

And then the cry of 'WITCH!' was heard ... last thing you remember it was getting warm.

Actually, the way I understand it, you could likely pass for someone half your age back in 1000AD.

Besides I'm not too much younger.

Having some Viagra would be good. Anything that would allow the king to 'salute the queen' one last time would have real value. A small gold coin might represent a years wage for well off peasant family.

"...A small gold coin might represent a years wage for well off peasant family..."

Somewhere I have my "former" wedding ring, smashed flat with a hammer. Maybe I could trade it for a cup or ale, or grog or whatever...

This is as good place as any. You are with a group. You have your time line mapped out and a copy is with a trusted group. You have your time machine and a means of communication. You may be gone for a while, what do you bring?

Jeanette Isabelle

If I have my time machine, I'm not gonna be gone all that long. I might not come back to "here," but I'm not staying "there"...

Soap.

And a Bic lighter.

-Blast

Jeanette,

You are missing the point of the discussion.

If you wound up there with your EDC dressed as you are, how would you go about surviving... The how isn't really important. Assume there is no way back and you must eek out an existence there.

Mike

Definitely any gold jewelry you have on your person would be beneficial. Technology would probably put you at risk.

I would say that for most people, they would be SOL. Not much chance of surviving. Women would definitely be on the short end of the stick.

Your best bet would probably try to eek out a living out in the wilderness as many suggest. Less chance of being hit by an epidemic going around.

Now then, if you knew this was coming? Obviously some period clothing, gold, antibiotics would be your friend. Wouldn't mind a nice firearm and perhaps a muzzleloader when your cartridges are gone.

Walk softly and carry a big big stick (that spits fire). The man with the biggest stick wins.

How one gets there is important. People don't just magically show up in another period of time. They get there by technology.

Jeanette Isabelle

At 5'3" i'm well below the modern average for males, so height-wise i'd be able to blend in pretty easily. However, i'm also built like a retired football(not futball) player, and that would make me stick out from the half-starved natives. as i said before, and several others have mentioned, my good health and education would put me on par with if not well above nobility, so if i could stay alive long enough to get a period outfit I could pass as a visiting foreign dignitary. The pocket-change most today consider worthless would be further evidence of being part of the upper crust, as having more than two of ANY type of coinage would be extremely rare in that time, especially coinage the size of an American quarter. If you were wearing any kind of jewelery, your membership in the royal class would be completely unquestioned.

"...They get there by technology..."

Or magic...

The time machine I use in role plays and in my science fictions stories is based on the works by theoretical physicist Dr. Michio Kaku and the working time travel simulator he designed. It is not by magic.

Jeanette Isabelle

I give up...

Jeanette,

Ok, ok... a rift in timespace opens up due to a microsized blackhole. There is no going back... It was a fluke of nature.

You are there in 1000 AD.... Now what?

Hi JeanetteIsabelle



Some work colleages have produced a Star Trek inspired movie at http://www.starshipintrepid.net/downloads.htm I'm always amazed at their attention to science fiction detail. (They even had an argument over which style of phasors were contempory)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoBk8bxU1rs shows what happens when the Federation of Planets opened up a local Star Fleet Academy in 2345 in Carnoustie in Scotland. (this could be what happens when you're transported into the future rather than the past)

One obvious problem I see here is that they are traveling at warp factor 10. That is theoretically impossible.

Jeanette Isabelle

I think the general consensus seems to be to hide out and try to eke by with a solitary existence.

I like the idea of trying to become engaged in some maritime venture. If I can get enough language skills down, I know my navigational skills are well beyond those that were practiced in 1000 A.D. And I'm sure my marlinspike seamanship skills would hold up. So, I could make myself of use and ports would not be places where it would be that unusual to see someone who was different, as was observed in an earlier post, because at 6'3" and in decent shape at 230+, I am not going to blend in easily.

So, the question to figure out is really how to stay alive long enough to get the language skills.

Rather than hide in the woods I'd keep my eye open for a travelling troupe of performers. I think they'd like a 6'5" giant with them for both drawing crowds to the show and busting the occasional heads as needed. Most actors are a bit strange anyway with so my habits of washing my hands/clothes and only drinking boiled water probably wouldn't be an issue.

-Blast

In that case I would work on sending a message. Find out when in time you are, find a cave or a large rock. Carve a message, explain who you are, when you are and how you got there. Any additional information will also be helpful. Your message will one day be discovered and depending on how accurate your message is, you will be rescued within twenty-four hours.

Jeanette Isabelle

So, your short answer is write a message and hope to be rescued?

Continuing with your line of reasoning, it doesn't work... No one comes... Now what?

I'm sure that the original post was intended as a though provoking question. Considering the timeframe, what people normally have on them at any given moment, assuming zero chance of rescue, how could someone get along in that environment?

The question is not, "Will I be rescued if the message is found?" The real question would be, "Will the message be found?" I think you are missing something important. I would not be back in time if time travel was not possible.

If I am still around a week later then either the message was not found or the information I provided was not accurate. The next thing to do is to verify the date. If, after I have done everything I know to do to verify the date, my information is accurate then my message was not found. I would then find another way to send a message.

Jeanette Isabelle

What would you do for that week... That is the key factor I'm trying to get you to answer...

Stop trying to overthink that "how" part being transported back. Like I said, assume some fluke. There is NO rescue. Period, end of statement... That is the intent of the original poster.

Actually JeanetteIsabelle is right. You could leave messages somewhere they are going to be found. After all you know what is going to surivive. I've seen the Book of Kells myself. Or get the church to pass the message on. You know London is going to be built up miles from where it is now. Just burying plenty of messages anywhere near and some will be found.
There was an iteresting twist on this in a short story where someone leaving a time capsule is approached by a mysterious stranger saying he wants to discover if they will have time travel in the future, by leaving messages in time capsules, claiming to be transcribed from a traveller from the future, too sick to write himself and asking to be rescued. Transcribed because of course the person really leaving the note doesn't know the language of the future.
"But what if a traveller from the future really did want to be rescued?" asked the time capsule man; "how would he persuade people leaving time capsules to include messages?"
"I'm sure he'd think of something" says the stranger.

But as you say JeanetteIsabelle is also missing the point. This is a survival site; we are interested in how we'd manage without our technology (he says after including a science fiction story precise).
I think we'd be lost; so you know radios and cars will be possible one day? Can you make one?
Being able to read and write and do arithmetic could make you a town record keeper. If you could persuade them to let you keep it in your own language while you learnt theirs.
The need for hygiene would probably be your greatest knowledge. Setting up as a doctor who at least didn't use snails and handle wounds with filthy fingers could bring results. Again if you last long enough to learn their lingo.
Do you think the only piece of technology I could introduce; the button, would make me rich? :-)
The Sock

Time travel is possible or it isn't. There is no in between. If there is a way to get there, then there is a way to get back.

In the mean time, finding water and shelter should not be that difficult. Foraging for food may be a little trickier but still doable. I would not be making any long term plans.

Jeanette Isabelle

The point of my original question was intended to promote a survival based discussion, with no hope of "rescue."

If anyone would like to discuss time travel means, getting there/back, leaving messages for future inhabitants, etc., please feel free to start a new thread.

Also, if you happen to carry a knife with you all the time, that doesn't go with you. No jewelry, watches, wallets... just clothing and shoes.

I would disagree with anyone thinking that shelter, water, and food would be anything like a trip to the wilderness today. Any place you would attempt to hermit yourself away is going to be owned by a local noble or goverend by some type of prefect. In order to build a fire, you're going to have to cut down their trees (or harvest dead wood that belongs to them). The subsequent fire may very likely attract attention to your location. I wouldn't think the nobels would appreciate squatters, even though your existance there would be relatively harmless. Food: anything foraged or killed would constitute theft from a noble. And drinking the water without boiling it? Not even the locals would do that, drink the water I mean. They didn't know about boiling anything of course. They all would drink a local brew because without sanitation the water supplies are mostly contaminated.

And again, if you're a circumcised male, I don't think there's much chance of you passing yourself off as a monk who has taken a vow of silence. Upon discovery, you'll immediately be tagged as a jew or a muslim (if not a heretic or a which). I'm not sure of the possibility of conversion, but the complexity of that issue would most likely warrant the need to speak the local language first before that could happen.

As far as long term existance, I would go for either brewing or medicine. The knowledge of basic sanitation would put anyone who knows basic first aid in a league above any of the medical scientists of the dark ages. I've read that brewing recipies were closely guarded secrets and one had to know how to read in order to make anything, thus it was the monesteries where all the brew was made. And I don't think the distillation process was known then. Making a basic distilled spirit would likely create quite a sensation, even with the nobility. You could become a minor celebrity just by making some rot-gut sour mash!

Assuming whatever takes him back is a two way street. What if his method of going back is a one way street and the way we are currently going into the future (check your watch, we're moving through time) is the only way back? You could be waiting the rest of your life -- which could be a short time or a long time depending on how well you can survive living in that age.

Look on the bright side, maybe you won't live very long.

At any rate, methinks you people have learned too much of your history from Monty Python.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_ages#Modern_popular_use

Yes, but how can you be sure rescuing you be worthwhile for the time machine's owner? It seems you are assuming time travel would be a low cost/low energy activity. What if the economics of time travel makes your rescue cost prohibitive?

From the question as posed it sounds like you were sent back in time accidently. It's easy to have an accident in the lab, I do it all the time. The question is, what will it cost to fix the damage (or retreive the traveller)? Worst case scenerio is they decide the best way to avoid damage to the known timeline is to kill you before you can mess anything up.

Imagine you are sitting in your cave when suddenly a small device pops into existence. It has note saying to hold it close to your body and press the red button.

Next thing you know, St. Peter is staring at you with a shocked look and says, "Wow, are you early!".

-Blast

any thoughts about becoming the next in-famous highway man? rob from the rich? at least for a little while before you become as malnourished as the locals.

Time travel is theoretically possible even beyond the fact we are traveling into the future at the rate of one minute per minute. Therefore, if we can travel 1,000 years in one direction, we can travel 1,000 years in the other direction.

Jeanette Isabelle

In keeping with the OPs intent"

I would solve the language problem by pretending to be a mute.

The guys who suggested finding a seaport are on the right track. Port cities would probably be accustomed to strangers from different places. Your superior knowledge would eventually help you excel.

If you decide to live off the land, stay away from major population centers, castles and transportation routes. The low population density would make it likely that you could find someplace to eek out a retched existence without attracting the attention of the nobles.

As for getting my history from Monty Python, I would always keep in mind that "No One Expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

Um, actually the original tales of Robin Hood had him stealing back money taken from common people by excessive taxation from the government...

But in a similar vein, maybe Nostradamus was a time traveler...

-Blast

p.s. Anyone here ever read "Lest Darkness Falls"? It was about a college professor who got sent back to the end of Roman times. He brought distilled alcohol, fumigation, perspective in paintings, and pockets in togas to the people and eventually managed to ward off the Dark Ages. It was a pretty good book.

I am not assuming that at all, a time machine needs to have fabulous amounts of energy. One either has to use negative energy, a nuclear reactor, an Orion's rift generator or something else of that nature.


Congratulations, you just created a paradox. You are dead and yet not dead at the same time, just like Schrödinger's cat.

Jeanette Isabelle

You dying in the past does not create a paradox at all. It actually cleans up the balance sheet quite nicely. You are killed and are thus prevented from overly contaminating the timeline.

I won't even start talking butterfly effect.

I'm starting to warm to the idea of surviving in a port town... The stranger aspect could work in your favor. I come from a far away land with strange knowledge and a liquid that will rock your world!

Medieval Coconuts

No, you are dead BEFORE you are alive which isn't any more of a paradox than being alive before you were alive. In 1000 AD there isn't a dead me and a live me at the same time (ala Schrodinger). From that prespective, it's no different than me being alive now and dead in the future. To the universe, there is no difference particle-wise between a living or dead creature. As one famous time traveler stated, "Life is just the Univierse's way of keeping meat fresh."

The live/dead situation you describe isn't the same as Schrodinger's Cat. In this case, both the live and dead me would exist and could be observed by the same observer at the same time. There would be no collapse of the waveform to a single state.

FYI, I have a master's in quantum physics.

In reality, the paradox occured when the time travel took place. By traveling backwards in time you've essentially created matter and energy out of nothing. The amount of matter/energy in the universe is constant. The particles that eventually became you already existed back in 1000 AD. They can't exist there in two places at the same time. To the universe, it'd look like new matter suddenly popped into existence. The Universe HATES that when it happens.

Of course, this could be circumvented if you were recreated out of atoms present in the past, but that could be very messy if things went wrong.

-Blast, who would still hook up with performers, though a port city sounds good, too.

I would like to pose a related hypothetical.

"If you were to travel back in time to 1000AD with Jeanette Isabella and Blast, once they began discussing quantum physics, how long would you WANT to survive."

LOL! Point taken. Jeanette, PM me if you want to discuss this more.

-Blast

"...how long would you WANT to survive..."

Not long, considering the headache I am sure it would give me. Too much deep thinking for an old guy...

Man you beat me - I will just have to travel back in time and post before you . Oh wait I can't do that ther would be too many atoms just then.

Pete

I think I would want to hang with Blast. We could form a performing troop on our own. And, if horseflies attack, I'm sure they would go after him more! ;-)

I think that our colorful clothes would place us more along the lines of nobility... No one would be sure which nobility, but that could make things interesting... Speaking in odd tongues, wearing odd clothes that are brightly colored, definitely fit and free of disease...

I, for one, really am enjoying this thought exercise...

Blast and JeanetteIsabella, hope you didn't take offense, just a little good natured ribbing after a night of no sleep and my 23rd cup of coffee.

Mike H, with that hat, you would probably be immediately declared King and Blast would have to start planning his coup. He has disclosed his plan for world domination here before. Why not get a 1000 year head start?

With Blast's luck, he'd end up in 10,000 BC and would be sitting there in his cave admiring the fire he made from scratch, pondering how to catch the mice that infest his new dwelling and in would walk this little not quite domesticated feline. . . meoww

Your right.


I don't see how. Don't forget that the universe is multi-dimensional. For every amount of space traveling back in time, there is an equal amount of space traveling forward in time.

Jeanette Isabelle

Maybe we should ask Shirley MacLaine, she claims to have bounced back and forth in time quite a bit...

Mike,

Have you ever seen the movie "The Man Who Would Be King"? Sean Connery and Michael Caine play two British adventures who decide to take over a small country north of Afganistain. It's a GREAT movie and somewhat fitting for this discussion. Basically, what would happen if "modern" people end up among less civilized(for lack of a better term) people. In the movie Connery ends up pretending to be a god which works out well for quite a while, then becomes very, very bad.

-Blast

For clarity before I respond could you please define what you mean by "space" in this statement?

-Blast

thatguyjeff wrote:

>The point of my original question was intended to promote a >survival based discussion, with no hope of "rescue."

>If anyone would like to discuss time travel means, getting >there/back, leaving messages for future inhabitants, etc., >please feel free to start a new thread.

Welcome to ETS jeff! we like to wander around discussing wherever the thread leads. :-)
The only persons on this site who'd advice I'd bet my life on is Doug Ritter. Look at his advice for definitive facts.
The forums are for chat.
The Sock

I've come to the conclusion that there's no such thing as domesticated felines, just ones that have figured out humans can be a food source in multiple ways.

-Blast

I'd put Taurus in a close second.

-Blast, who isn't kissing up to get more detcord...

I'm thinking that Jeannette and Blast would probably have died soon after traveling, for the simple reason that they got so involved in how they got to wherever they are, that they forgot to drink water and expired.

The temporal physics discussion has been moved to private message. For those other than Blast and myself, who find temporal physics fascinating, sorry about that.

Jeanette Isabelle

Not really. During this fascinating discussion, I did manage to pry myself from the computer long enough for a cup of tea.

Jeanette Isabelle

Chris, interesting strategum. Are you a member of the Tribe or was it play acting?

I can't recall where I read I but I think they killed people who bathed because they thought the person taking a bath was trying to put a hex/curse on them?

Umm, no.

It appears to me that you are not taking into account the discrepancy that exists between Old Style (OS) and New Style (NS) dates, specifically 11 days, resulting from the transition from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar, starting in 1582, and continuing up until 1923 (although parts of North Africa, as well as the Orthodox religion, still have not made the transition).

Most of modern-day Europe (including the American colonies) officially made the transition in September of 1752. Dates are further confused due to the discrepancy between the traditional start of the NS calendar on January 1, from the previous March 1 that was used in OS. Lunisolar calendars, synodic months, and leap year errors between the calendars also mix things up a bit…

The bottom line Jeanette is that once you somehow verify the exact date that you are living in, you’re still going to be off by 11 days when one compares it to the current (NS) Gregorian calendar.


Huh?

Using that same logic, I could claim that dropping a glass vase from a second story window to the sidewalk below would break it, so throwing shattered pieces of glass back through the window would make a vase.

Jim

Life was a lot easier before that Scotsman invented universal time!!

Any time traveler would already know that. If I was traveling back in time I may use coordinates relative to the Gregorian calendar. If I were sent to 1000 A.D., did not know to when I was sent and later found out, I would know where I am according to the Julian calendar. I can then relate that information to a future time traveler and he can either do the math, manually switch to the Julian calendar or have the time machine do it automatically.


No, it does not work that way.

Jeanette Isabelle

Yep it's in the TARDIS owners manual

Actually I use a Michio Kaku time machine, powered by an Orion's rift generator, in my science fiction writing.

Jeanette Isabelle

Mike_H,

At best you may be able to send information back in time by modifiying a Tachyon stream, kind of like this.

-Blast, who'se power bill is going to be HUGE this month.

So Blast,

How does one realistically (as opposed to relativistically) travel back in time?

Mike

"...Any time traveler would already know that..."

Maybe if you planned on being a time traveler, but the original post said that "...You're suddenly whisked back in time to 1000 AD...". As in poofed. Heck, even after reading the above info about 11 days, etc, I would still be clueless if you suddenly poofed me somewhere...

Uh oh.

I would comment further, but I suspect that someone will do that for me...

Thank you Jeff for writing this fine adventure plot line, and to Mike H for DMing us thru it. Jeanette, please don't irratate the DM, for he is always right and the sudden appearance of a Ancient Red Dragon as a wandering monster is generally bad for the adventuring groups health.

Me, I'd go hermit-like for a while. Being 6'3" and 295# does not make me blend in well, but the big shaggy beard (think grizzly adams) might help.

But the nickname might cause problems ::heh-heh::

OGRE

'Dogs have owners - cats have staff'
The Sock

Not dismissing anyone elses knowledge. But the person on this site who's opinion Id trust the least is myself.
I'm a backpacker in Europe. So I can't light a fire, trap, fish, hunt and have never been more than a few miles from a road in my life. Doug is the only one who is widely acknowledged as an expert so I'd go for his guides; not the forums for advice.
Wouldn't you?
The Sock

Too funny!!! *poof* you are dead.

Michael Crichton wrote a great book about time travel back to 14th century France. It was one of my favorites of his, and addresses a lot of these issues pretty well.

Practice your swordsmanship!

You're preaching to the choir.

Jeanette Isabelle

I believe you are talking about Timeline...

Could you include a quote so I know what you are talking about.

Jeanette Isabelle

That book is Timeline, which I found quite entertaining. It was also a pretty poorly made movie (IMO).

And here is where the confusion lies. Mike replies to my post but refers to another.

Jeanette Isabelle

With all due respect I have no interest in fantasy novels or role playing games. Time travel is just the setup for this thought experiment. Time lines, paradoxes, and notional understandings of the physics of time travel are pretty useless subjects for practical survival.

On the other hand practical survival in 1000AD is an interesting thought experiment. Dealing with technology, social structures and making the best use of a short list of materials and a much more extensive knowledge base most practical minded people in this age possess but fail to realize they have:

There is another thing a modern traveler might be able to do in 1000 AD. You would have significant advantages in navigation. The map you could draw from memory, assuming your map literate and reasonably capable, would blow virtually every map of the day out of the water.

What passes today as working knowledge of celestial navigation would put you in the upper percentiles of navigators and astronomers. They were still working out planetary motion. Latitude, asa practical concept, was understood fairly well by the best navigators. But longitude was a complete mystery. Just knowing how it was solved, by use of accurate clocks, puts you ahead of every navigator of the day.

So much better if you have a watch.

Add to this an understanding of nutrition and vitamin-C, a problem that would be the scourge of oceanic navigation into the 1700s, and food preservation and water collection and you could be the single most capable seaman on the planet at the time.

Remember that Columbus was looking for India when he ran into the Caribbean and Cuba. Which is why we call native Americans Indians. You might not know a lot about geography but you know rough where North and South America are. You know were Australia is. You know about the isthmus of Panama. In broad terms where Japan and Korea are.

Given a choice getting to a port and signing on as navigator might be a good move. Possibly working for a mapmaker. Knowing the alphabet and numbers would be a major benefit. Ports were less well traveled by clergy and they were, by reputation, more tolerant of differences and peculiarities. A large muscular, overly clean, effetely soft, person who could read and who has strange manners and customs might not stick out so much.

Funny thing is that if you know something about seagoing boats in modern times you wouldn't be unfamiliar with the boats of 1000AD. The basics haven't changed in a thousand years.

For those who don't think thinking about living in 100AD has any practical value you might remember that navigation is a practical skill. If you could get along as a navigator in 1000AD you could pretty much make your own working tables and instruments and navigate in a survival situation today.

For long-term survival the practical aspects of food preservation and nutrition are the same as in 1000AD. As are the aspects of getting along in a radically foreign culture. Dropped into the tribal areas of Afghanistan could see you having to get along with practitioners of a harsh religion where inadvertently insulting their faith, or advertising yours, could be fatal.

I just did a general post from the quick reply which just replies to the last poster...

"...signing on as navigator might be a good move..."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in 1000AD didn't they still think that the world was flat? That being the case, I suspect that you would have a hard time getting anyone to follow your directions. Thar be dragons ye know...

well, if you could get there and not be killed outright, the Vikings might listen. Weren't they in the whole "move west, young man" mode about that time? Between Iceland, Greenland, and Canada, they at least pushed boundaries.

On a different topic, Jeanette, you might have your preferences set to show the post formated as replies and sub-replies, not in a chronologic order. This could explain the confusion on who is replying to whom. I was pretty lost for a while on here until I figured that one out.

I agree, seafaring types would be rather pragmatic about navigation. You either get them there or you don't. Just the knowledge that the world is round puts you at an advantage. But don't forget that for some of these guys navigation was a secret they did not share openly. Continue that tradition and keep your knowledge to yourself, it increases your power. Knowledge is power, keep it to yourself.

The trick will be to not come off so knowledgeable that you get accused of practicing black magic. The Flat Earth society is alive and well in 1000 AD. Copernicus and Galileo didn't show up until well after 1000 AD and the theory of the Earth not being the center of the Universe hadn't yet received the Vatican's wrath. The church's held to literal scripture even after Columbus discovered the new World.

Whatever you do don't screw up the timeline by writing a book

"...the Vikings might listen..."

That could work. Unless of course you have dark brown eyes, and when you had hair it was very dark brown (or so the pictures show, it has been so long I have forgotten). In that case, I suspect you (I) would be toast...

"...Whatever you do don't screw up the timeline by writing a book..."

Or worse yet, make a movie...

If I did end up 1000 years in the past, and all attempts at rescue through conventional means have failed, getting killed would not the worst thing that could happen. Getting erased from history is.

Jeanette Isabelle

It is just me, or did this topic move to the “Photo Gallery” for everyone? Damn those temporal rifts…

I understand why it moved; why to the photo gallery?

Jeanette Isabelle

While popular view, supported by some tacit agreement from church and scientific dogma, maintained that the earth was approximately flat many seamen, all the way back to the time of Aristotle the more knowledgeable sailors tacitly understood that the earth was round. This was understood in part because any competent observer, a requirement for survival at sea, would note that the tops of other ships mast appeared long before the ship itself became visible. Many ships carried bright flags or banners at the top of the mast so they could more easily stay together. Traveling in groups was an advantage on a oblate spheroid.

The appellation of "there be dragons" was often understood as a general term indicating that the area had not been explored, mapped or contained shifting hazards. To this day ships are in danger in areas like the western tip of Africa because the shifting sand bars reach well out to sea.

Even taken more literally it is not too much of a stretch. As the wreck of the Essex, which was sunk by a whale in the 1820s, shows there were indeed large potentially dangerous animals. The many unmapped reefs, isolated rocks and dangerous tides were every bit as scary a any dragon. Particularly for the many western ships that were square rigged and couldn't sail against the wind.

Caught on a lee shore they were largely incapable of 'clawing off' in a storm at best they would drop anchor and pray. In calm weather they would either anchor and wait for the wind to shift or row off using the long boats. The universal bane of sailors through time has not been the ocean so much as the land.

Of course, into the 1700s, crews commonly faced malnutrition or even starvation after a couple of weeks. This was one of the reasons ships often tried to stay near the coasts. The other being much easier navigation.

Maybe to solicit proof.

Perhaps I spoke too soon. Seems the more exotic aspects of the time-space continuum may be relevant. What with entire threads moving on their own.

The topic was moved to the Campfire Forum-in theory. It popped up in the photo gallery. I haven't had time to bother Doug about it. And as a postscript on the whimsy of measure and location, the Eastern Orthodox church has very good reasons for maintaining the old LITURGICAL calender. The change by a Pope for economic and political reasons may be explained through Easter, or Paska. By tradition it is held after a very real celestial event rich in symbolism of the SUN's death and rebirth and the SON's resurrection.It also cannot be observed until after Passover.The salvation of 'the Lamb of God' to eastern orthodoxy is the second fullfilment of God's promise to the enslaved jews of Egypt.You don't observe or show respect to one event by obliterating it's predecessor in the liturgical year-- unless temporal considerations of one Pope come into play. There are many religious calenders; jewish, japanese,islam etc. But don't worry! ETS is calibrated by Arizona time.

Darn you Blast... I told you it was .11, not .1 It space/time shifted just a wee bit too much! LOL.

Seems that working in the shipping industry may be a valid way to go. Science would be tricky as you would risk bringing the wrath of the church down on you.

You see jeff? this is exactly the kind of information we log onto this site for! There are plenty of religious sites out there if you want to know how to light a fire.
The Sock

Actually, I'm putting together a millenium length BOB for my born again nieghbors to grab during the Rapture.They're a bit put out, they went running out into the street start of sabbath at sundown and blew a Shofar. My Rabbi took it away from them.I gave everyone a STORM whistle but it isn't the same.

I

In the British version of 'The Apprentice' that has just finished here, one team were told to buy 'kosher chicken' so they went to a halal butchers and got them to say a prayer over it.
'Our Donald Trump', jewish entrepeneur Michael Sugar asked one of the team who described himself on his resume as 'a good jewish boy' why he didn't go the whole way and get a catholic priest to take the butchers confession?
The Sock

That is a bit surreal. I'm hearing only one side but it seems some people just don't get it.

Jeanette Isabelle

IMHO survival is not a narrow field. Virtually every area of human knowledge and understanding can be brought to bear and, given the right situation, could give you an advantage.

History, social studies, comparative religion, psychology and art are all useful. Survival isn't just about bullets and beans and knowing how to create fire by rubbing sticks together. It is also understanding people, people's passage through time and how to get along with other cultures and religions.

If you mixed with people at all, your chances of survival in 1000AD europe without an understanding of religion would be nil.
As Art_in_FL says understanding local mores are essential.
Even today one guide book warns visitors to Indonesia with the cautionary tale of a traveller who a passerby saw hiding money in his sock, so promptly laid him out with a punch. The king is very highly respected and putting his picture next to the feet was a gross insult in an islamic country.
Saying you are a protestant in 1000AD and explaining that 'was a church that didn't follow the pope' would mean a fast journey to a fire. Trying to dig your way out with the modern day: 'I'm not really religious' would lead to the same result.
If you claimed to be a christian and they could see you didn't know the rules of the Catholic Church; well god knows what they'd make of that. It wouln't be good....
The Sock

Good points... This thread has certainly taken the concept of survival to the next step. It really IS just getting along... Be it with other people or with nature (knowing how nature can hurt/help you).

Seems we phase shifted into the correct forum now!

Yeah it is a thread that makes you think:
Going back in time is what we are experiencing every time we are cut off from civilizations benefits. We are living the way people had to one time.
Visiting more religious countries is stepping back to the past in that area. Disrespecting a cross then, would get the same reaction disrespecting the koran would in some places now.
Visiting a non-democracy is stepping back to our countries before democracy.
The Sock

Some people may have thought so into the 16th Century, but the idea that the Earth is round has been around for a lot longer. Claudius Ptolemaeus, better known as Ptolemy, was working with projecting the spherical surface of the Earth onto flat maps, and he lived 100 - 178 A.D.

As a strategy, Once you get a bit of language skills, one make out getting to a location that would be friendly to a stranded or lost seafarer. Pass yourself off as someone who was lost at sea, either overboard or through a sinking.

And if I recall correctly, an ancient Greek by the name of Eratosthenes measured the circumference of the Earth over 100 years BCE, getting a figure within a couple of percent of the true figure. The Greeks knew the earth was a sphere for several reasons, including the fact that ships sailing away from any point on the ocean (e.g. a stationary ship) seemed to 'sink' below the horizon at the same distance, (but did not sink). The only geometric shape for which this is true is a sphere. Also, the shape of the earth's shadow on the moon in an eclipse is a circle; a sphere casts a circle as a shadow. (Thanks to my high school science teacher, many many many years ago)

Suffice it to say, your interpretation leaves much to be desired. But your scorn for the Pope is noted, just not appreciated.

Ditto.

Now now... Let's leave any religious discussion, outside of survial situation, out of this... ;-)

Who would have ever thought that this thread would continue as long as it did... Esp. after delving into the space/time continuum and bouncing around a couple of forums.

And there we hit a snag. Not mentioning religion in a thread devoted to living in 1000 AD europe, would be like saying: 'you are visiting 2008 Iraq? Oh don't bother what you say about which branch of Islam is the true one. No one will mind'.
Personally I couldnt even understand Chris's post never mind object to it.
The Sock

LOL!

I think Chris was just commenting on the aspects on how religion was pretty much used as a political tool...

Sock, you said previously:

...and judging by the posts in this thread, I fear many of you would be toast.

So, in summary, it seems that the useful skills/strategies metioned thus far are:

1) Hide and live off the land. (standard survival skills)
2) Some sort of shiphand, navigator.
3) Get in with the clergy. (good understanding of latin / theology)
4) Travelling entertainer / minstrel (Only good if you are Blast.)
5) Try to impersonate a noble.
6) Write messages in a cave, hoping that someone in the future with a time machine can save you.

Have I missed anything?

I'd add one other to Mike_H's list, which was not mentioned and I just thought of, but might very have you changing the course of history: advise someone on how to make war, if you have any concept about creating weapons or, possibly, tactics.

If you are the guy who knows how to make gunpowder or any explosive, then you risk being burned as a witch or something. But the upside may be that the King hires you to create a whole bunch for him.

I think you'd need to get past the first few months to be able to use this.

Wait 66 years and place a bet on the battle of hastings winner. Or if you can remember the right sulphur/charcoal/saltpeter mix for gunpowder; fix the fight!
The Sock

"...Wait 66 years..."

Might be a hard thing to do, considering how young people died back in those days...

Attending the battle of hastings wouldn't be a safe bet either. Just being near an army was dangerous. They didn't have the safet culture we have.
I noticed in the bayeux tapestry one of the norman archers is pointing his strung bow around all around.
He'll have someones eye out with that thing.
The Sock