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#133472 - 05/22/08 12:56 AM Re: Rifle Choices [Re: ducktapeguy]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
Be careful putting too much stock in websites like that one, which states that "...a bullet...is a tool..." I was researching the Bullet Button a few days ago, and went to the CA DOJ website. Did a search there and came up with a new ruling from DOJ that a bullet or cartridge IS NOT considered a tool, thereby making the Bullet Button (or anything similar) unapproved in CA.

Sorry that I can not cut and paste that info, for some reason I can't get the page to come up tonight (probably the 40+ mph winds and my aircard not being compatable)...
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OBG

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#133524 - 05/22/08 03:34 PM Re: Rifle Choices [Re: OldBaldGuy]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: OldBaldGuy
Did a search there and came up with a new ruling from DOJ that a bullet or cartridge IS NOT considered a tool, thereby making the Bullet Button (or anything similar) unapproved in CA.


Sorry, getting further off the original topic, but I think it's an important point. And IANAL so if it's really important to any readers, consult a real attorney.

OBG, I believe that reading the explanation at a site like this explains that the CA DOJ never actually went through the process of making that memo a legal regulation. As it stands now, the law is pretty clear about what is considered a "detachable magazine". The CA DOJ was trying to "clarify" the law in that 2006 memo by requiring that any modifications, like the Bullet Button, had to be "permanent" but the wording of the original law makes no such distinction and the DOJ itself did not require such modifications to be permanent before this 2006 memo.

That memo is just a memo. The CA DOJ tried to submit a new regulation to that effect, but let it die and the time limit to approve that change has expired. So, for now, the Bullet Button, Prince50, etc. are not illegal unless the CA DOJ submits a new resolution to make them illegal and gets that through the regulatory approval process.

Anyway, for anyone interested in learning about how Californians can own "assault weapons," that first link up above is a good summary. The webpage also has a link to the 2006 CA DOJ memo in question.

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#133525 - 05/22/08 03:43 PM Re: Rifle Choices [Re: OldBaldGuy]
ducktapeguy Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/28/06
Posts: 358
There is some confusion on that issue, and the laws may change soon. But as far as I know the current bullet button is NOT illegal to use, and the DOJ has approved a bullet as a tool. This site has a very good section regarding the laws, without it I would never be able to keep up with the laws in CA because the laws change every few months.

http://www.calguns.net/copmemo2.pdf

I still wouldn't trust any legal advice I find on the internet, but at least I can keep up with the new changes and it can lead me to the information I'm looking for.

For some it's a grey area, and not worth the risk to get hassled by an uniformed LEO. So some people (like me) don't use it and just use a mag lock kit instead. I'm just pointing out that the AR-15 is NOT illegal in CA, and you're not limited to 10 round fixed mags.

Edit: Looks like Arney beat me to it. Like I said, don't believe most of what you read on the internet, but you have to do the research for yourself.


Edited by ducktapeguy (05/22/08 03:46 PM)

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#133529 - 05/22/08 04:18 PM Re: Rifle Choices [Re: Arney]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
Not being able to bring up the DOJ site yet, I bow to your knowledge, thanks...
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OBG

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#133532 - 05/22/08 04:34 PM Re: Rifle Choices [Re: OldBaldGuy]
ducktapeguy Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/28/06
Posts: 358
Is this is the page you were referring to?

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/sb23.pdf

Section 978.20a

I had to use google to find it because their search engine wouldn't bring it up.

Anyway, back to the original topic. The OP doesn't even live in CA, so I doubt he's interested in the legal obstacles we have to go through.

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#133544 - 05/22/08 06:13 PM Re: Rifle Choices [Re: Russ]
Mark_G Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Stafford, VA
Originally Posted By: Russ
Originally Posted By: Nishnabotna
I would buy one of those. I'd like a carbine in a pistol caliber.
From the OP:
Quote:
. . .Requirements:
.223 or .308 caliber. . .
Since he's in AZ, there should be no reason to settle for an SU-16 and I see no reason to go to a pistol caliber. Get a Bushmaster AR-15



I agree totally, my point was more of cost. If you are trying to go "cheaper", then the Beretta is a option. If cost is not an issue, As a lefty I go Stag arms all the way, but for the righties a lot more options. Bushy's, Rock River, Armalite, etc etc.

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#133555 - 05/22/08 09:00 PM Re: Rifle Choices [Re: LeeG]
cajun_kw Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Southern California
I've read more than one favorable review of the Kel-Tec. And its on my list for BOB weapons ...should I be able to find one at the same time I have $$$ to buy it.
I am philsophically opposed to putting $1000 weapons in a BOB. Too much money tied up. At the same time ... you want a quality tool if its the only one you bring. And a Kel-Tec is the most portable & compact magazine fed option for the cost...IMHO.
Though maybe a pistol caliber equivalent is out there.
I was hoping to bug out without needing a trailer to haul my stuff ... yet no leave too many expensive supplies and weapons to be ranscked from my home in my absence.
I still haven't rationalized it all in my mind.
I may get a folding stock for an SKS Carbine and call it good enough. Though the Kel-tec still folds down smaller. And is probably lighter.
Once the need/desire for rifle type fire power is determined ...sacrifices in portability etc are gonna happen.
Bottom line ... I think the Kel-tec would be durable enough to ge the job done.

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#134058 - 05/29/08 03:07 PM Re: Rifle Choices [Re: cajun_kw]
Nomad Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/04/02
Posts: 465
Loc: Just wandering around.
I owned a Kel-Tec .223. I think it was a SU-16(?). The folding stock .223 that does not fire with the stock folded. I found it to be wildly inaccurate. The problem seems to be that the barrel is not supported well. If I changed my "hold" the point of aim and point of impact would deviate by more than 5" at 100 yds. If I used the bi-pod, the POI/POA shifted by at least 2" in a random way.

I also found the penetration ability of the .223 to be lacking. Sold the Kel-Tec and bought a Siga 762x39. Much better rifle, cheaper and more reliable. Much heavier though. Suits my needs well.


I strongly suggest you shoot the kel-tec before you buy.
_________________________
...........From Nomad.........Been "on the road" since '97

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#134061 - 05/29/08 03:35 PM Re: Rifle Choices [Re: Nomad]
Jeff_M Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 665
Loc: Northwest Florida
Originally Posted By: Nomad
I owned a Kel-Tec .223. I think it was a SU-16(?). The folding stock .223 that does not fire with the stock folded. I found it to be wildly inaccurate.


I'm glad I read your post. I was thinking of eventually getting one of the KT .223s for my wife. My thinking was lightweight, compact, cheap, in that order. I also like the ability to fire certain models in the wildly improbable off-chance it would be needed to be employed from a confined space, mainly from inside a car.

I some KT pistols, and I've found them to be highly reliable after careful break-in and a good "fluff and buff" treatment, resonably accurate within self-defense range, and inexpensive.

Do you, or anyone else, have reports of actual first-hand experience with the KT .223s?

Jeff

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#134072 - 05/29/08 05:51 PM Re: Rifle Choices [Re: Jeff_M]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
None with the KT, but if you want a .223 with a folding stock, I used to own a Ruger Mini-1f BGF (fifth rifle down here that I was more than happy with. It could be fired with the stock folded, and when extended it was very solid, not like some folding stocks. I'm not sure that they even make them anymore, and when I got mine I had to supply a letter from my department showing that I was a full time peace officer and would be using the weapon on duty (it was a real trick getting that too), but you can probably find one on the market if you look...
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OBG

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