I seem to spend a fair amount of time doing 'what if' thinking. During commutes, boring meetings, or other times you have to be somewhere physically but not mentally. I'll pick a topic and think about what my response should be. Then I'll change some variables and think about how that would affect my initial response. Sometimes I will even go through the motions of a response to see if things worked in real life like I thought they would.

Professionals in all sorts of physical activities train so they have 'default moves' - the thing to do when you don't have time to decide what to do. The more things you have a well defined default action for, the better off you will be.

Now for an example. You are driving and you look to one side and see someone in an adjacent car pointing a gun at you. What do you do? Do you do it something different in heavy or light traffic? Stopped at a light. Passengers in your car? Freeway or City streets?

I had this happen to me about 15 years ago. He was in center lane, I was in right lane. He'd been tailgating me for several blocks and finally pulled along side. I looked over to see a pistol pointed at me. I was at an intersection, so I hit the brakes and made a quick right turn and another a few blocks down and the guy never caught up to me (pre cell phone days). Was what I did necessary? I have no idea, but I do know I didn't get shot.

I have survived three mugging attempts, one office rampage (ex-employee came in with a gun and was waving it around), and numerous cases of idiocy on the road - all without mishap and largely because of having thought about what my reactions would be in advance.

Does anyone else do this sort of thing?

So, what did you do when your coworker went postal? I was working in a lab once where an ex-employee called in a bomb threat, but we all just shrugged and kept on working. Nobody was willing to abandon their experiments, knowing how much time it would take to set it up again. Perhaps this wasn't a particularly smart decision, but this was pre-Oklahoma City, and bombings just weren't part of my threat model.

I was trading stories with a coworker who also professed a fear of flying. I told her that I hated being stuck in a tin can with 200 other people for four hours. She told me the last flight she was on was hijacked. I couldn't top that.

I think that mental prepardness is a very important thing, right alongside of physical training, 'cuz when bad things happen you tend to go with what you have trained to do, be it physical or mental.

As for the guy alongside waving a gun, in my opinion hitting the brakes is the proper thing to do. Every time I see something on TV or a movie where the victim hits the gas I crack up. Why would anyone want to stay in front of a badguy with a gun???

I gotta go with OBG on this. Just tap the breaks (or lock them up if you want. watch out for the jerk tailgating you). A few quick turns, you're hopefully in the clear.

Or, maybe OBG can have us all meet him somewhere in the Central US, and give us a "how to" on the PIT manuever!

PIT'n is a hoot! But we use your cars for the training...

Katie,

The company I worked for at the time had a large number of employees, but only a small office staff. This was about the time where a few postal workers had their at work issues, thus coining the phrase. So I got to thinking about what to do, and then talked to the owner of the company about it. We sat down with police officer he knew and we worked out a plan. Basically there were a few of us in the office that were well trained with firearms (including the owner). The plan was after calling 911, he would talk to the person and try to diffuse the situation until the cops arrived. One of us others would be nearby and armed so if the guy did start shooting before the cops arrived, we would respond appropriately.

Fortunately, the only time the incident happened, the owner was able to keep the guy calm and get him to surrender his weapon before the police arrived.

Yep, driving home from the store yesterday in the right lane, I had a guy cut in front of me, no signal, maybe a foot of clearance, then he slowed down. Had to get on the brakes to avoid rear-ending him. Had I my pistol with me at the time, you can be sure it would've been in my hand. My reasoning is that vehicles can be come quite effective lethal weapons when abused, much the same as many other things, and actions such as these I perceive as a direct threat and will react accordingly. As it was, the guy took a right turn at the next block. I waved a big California Howdy his direction and went on my merry way.

I don't tolerate threats well I guess.

You've got to be kidding me. This is overreaction not unlike the hiker at the trailhead death.

Nope, no kidding.

Each of us has our own life experiences to rely on. Get threatened with being run over or off the road a couple times, and it might change any person's perspective.

Note that I didn't escalate the situation, merely prepared for the worst. After all, we do need to be a bit sensible about these things. Besides, I doubt if he or anyone else saw my gesture. More for my benefit and closure on the situation.

Do you have a link to the hiker at the trailhead death thread? I missed it.



I can't think of anything more dangerous in a near-collision situation than reaching for a gun instead of keeping both hands on the wheel.



Having been run off the road in the past, and having been almost run over more times than I can count (I live in Boston, it's almost an everyday occurrence), I still don't understand your point. Even if you're in a situation where you're a pedestrian and someone is deliberately trying to run you down with their car, introducing a gun into the situation is bringing the proverbial knife to the gunfight.

Well, at least it gives them something else to think about.

Let me clarify, after avoiding the rear-end collision, the next thing I would've done, had I had it with me, would be to grab my pistol. I agree that grabbing a pistol during the actual maneuver would be impractical, if not impossible. It is the follow up I am focusing on. Sorry for the confusion there.

Also, if a car is bearing down on me, I would agree that standing defiantly and pointing my pistol is probably not going to do anything to stop the vehicle, so moving out of the way does make better sense, though at least I have a chance of taking the driver with me. However, once out of the immediate path of harm, I can then deploy the firearm to reasonable effect to deter further attempts, should the driver appear willing to persist and is starting to come around for another pass. I am not suggesting a bullet is going to stop a car dead in it's tracks, bullets don't always stop humans dead in their tracks, which is why drawing on an assailant that's already engaged you isn't going to work very often, unless you are shooting major caliber, have been very well trained, and are very lucky. However, up to the point of engagement, a drawn firearm and a willingness and ability to use it for deadly effect can do wonders.

Let me put it this way, one possible outcome of this event would've been that I did rear-end this clown. So let's say now we are both stopped in the road, and Mr. Clown decides to step out of his vehicle and try to rush my door, maybe himself armed as well. Having a firearm in hand and ready to use might give me a chance of surviving his assault, or avoiding one altogether.

The point is, without a weapon my options on how to respond to Mr. Clown are limited. Should he decide to escalate the issue, I am better prepared to respond. If Mr. Clown is going to maliciously cause an accident, then I would appreciate any opportunity to neutralize the threat if possible. I may not avoid an imminent initial impact if he wants to turn it into demolition derby, but I can choose how to respond to any subsequent action on his part a lot better if I am armed. Unarmed, all I can do is try and evade, which may not be possible.

Besides, even if all I had was a knife, it'd be better than nothing I reckon. Sometimes a knife is a better weapon to have in a fight than a gun.

Otherwise, you leave me at the mercy of my enemies? What else can you do to stop an attack? Would you say the best way to win a fight is to avoid it in the first place? Some confrontations are unexpected and unavoidable. There was no way I could've predicted this guy was going to cut me off, nor do I have any idea what his intentions are at the time, so my philosophy is to prepare for the worst. That's just me, though. I fully acknowledge that YMMV.

I'm a huge pro-2A supporter, but even I'm having a hard time agreeing with you on this one. If someone is in FRONT of you, and you've avoided a rear end collision with them, the very next thing you should do is slow down and let them go, not grab a pistol and keep following. I can't even imagine a situation where a gun would even come into play unless you actively go after him, or both of you decide to stop.

A firearm should be your last choice after you've exhausted all other options, not the first thing you grab when someone pisses you off.

on a totally unrelated topic, I fired my new S&W .500 a few days ago. Je*** tapdancing Ch***t!!!. What a kick. I am willing to bet I can stop anything on planet earth with this baby. Cars, forign satellites in orbit, Blitz's zombies and everything in between.

Of course I don't see any PRACTICAL use for this gun....

Poor driving and rude driving are just that unless you have significant evidence of aggression directed at you as an individual.

With respect, introducing a weapon as the next factor seems premature, at a minimum.

When someone cuts me off, I just slow way down. And I hope that idiot / jerk / incompetent just proceeds away from me. This strategy has not failed yet.

I particularly hope the person is not injured in an accident in front of me because I really do not want to feel obligated to render them aid - but I hope that I would.

If the person does evidence directed aggression, then evasion by driving, a 911 call, and driving toward known law enforcement or manned security locations, would be priorities far ahead of reaching for a weapon. I would consider foot evasion if I had confidence of its success.

After exhausting those possibilities it may become a survival situation where the choices are few. If the person was pursuing in a vehicle, then my vehicle would be my first weapon of choice. If the pursuer was on foot and apparently unarmed, then improvised non-lethal weapons would be my choice. And if the pursuer was armed, close confrontation was unavoidable, and I felt my life or that of others was at risk - I would strike with the most powerful weapon at my disposal.

Without evidence of deliberate aggression the firearm is unnecessary (but comforting to know it's an option if you have it).

Don't forget that many LEOs have drawn pistols and killed people who were arguably driving toward them. They were vindicated as defending against assault with a deadly weapon. The car driven in their general direction was the deadly weapon.

I count myself lucky to have successfully visited, and driven, in Boston. Never again. I think they drive that way because of the belief that gun control will make them safe :-)

How many times in your life have you been cut off while driving? In how many of those situations did the person who cut you off then stop, get out of their car, and charge you?

I think that waving a gun around is much more likely to get you arrested for road rage than anything else. The other guy might get charged with reckless driving, but certainly not "assault with a deadly weapon."

There are people who do this on purpose -- they load their entire family into the car, swerve in front of you and slam on the breaks, you rear end them. Minor damage, and then they sue you for medical bills plus pain and suffering and lost income. Illegal? Yes. Immoral? Yes. Insurance fraud? Most definitely. Assault with a deadly weapon? No.

No one said anything about waving a gun around.

I would agree that waving a gun around without provocation would be unwarranted, in fact, waving a gun around at any time is probably uncalled for.

Nonetheless, I would still bring it to bear if I had it and felt I was being threatened.

As far as being stopped and being charged by another driver or their passenger, it's happened more than once, and as they were far better armed than I at the time, it was a most humbling experience, and not one I will ever repeat again if I can help it. (in reference to my "third" Blackwater encounter)

Have I drawn down on anyone before? Yes. I've also had fully automatic firearms pointed at me while driving without provocation and been directed to stop. It does have a very real and desired effect, especially when you believe the person pointing that firearm has every intention of using it should they feel the least bit threatened. I do not make a habit of pointing a loaded firearm at people, at least not where I can be observed doing so.

I agree that the act of someone deliberately causing an accident of the sort described does not necessarily consitute an ongoing threat, but at the time of the incident, you will not know if the threat is persistent until after the impact and the reaction of the occupants in the other vehicle. In hindsight or conjecture, certainly you can make that argument, but how are you going to know at the time, and that uncertainty is what warrants arming myself until I am sure the threat is over.

Let me differentiate something here. I don't just grab a gun and point it at people unless I feel an imminent threat. This does not preclude me from drawing my firearm and keeping it inconspicuously at the ready in situations where the perceived threat is at level 1. This is akin to investigating a possible home invasion at night, or an unavoidable excursion through a dangerous area concealed from public view, or stalking wild game in the field where I am positioning for a shot. It is one step preceding full engagement of the target.

Those 50 cal pistols all hurt my hand too much. In fact, since I broke it some years ago, I am finding even my 44 mag uncomfortable with the hot loads. I am going to have to find some better grips for my Super Redhawk.

Based on the continuing replies from other members, I think people are missing benjammin's clarification that he is talking about what happens when you're standing on the side of the road, no longer driving.

I think we all agree that driving at freeway speeds with an aggressive road rager with one hand and also trying to do something effective with a handgun with the other hand at the same time is not practical except in action movies. Well, unless you call waving it around an "effective" strategy. But once we're all stopped and maybe out of our vehicles, then the dynamic is very different. Trying to drive is no longer an immediate concern.

Actually, speaking of "waving it around," I had to chuckle when I read this thread and then a news article yesterday about some idiot that shot himself in the stomach while driving after he waved his pistol at someone during some road rage incident. The article didn't give details, but I assume that it probably went off as he was shoving it back into his waistband. He's probably glad that it wasn't pointed more downward at the time it went off.

Yeah, trying to bring a gun to bear during a moving confrontation would be akin to something from the Keystone Cops I suspect, or maybe a scene from "Raising Arizona". That's similar to a comparison made by a seargent observing the Blackwater morons being run out of a neighborhood in Baghdad one time. Everyone in the vehicle, including the driver, was in full auto mode, hosing down everything in their path, including at one point the floorboards of their own vehicle.

I'd laugh, except for my bad experiences with those nits.

This topic is likely already a dead horse, but I'll take one more swing at it...

Even thinking about reaching for a pistol when someone cuts you off in traffic is indicative of the ridiculous times in which we live. If the person forced you to a stop and then got out of his/her vehicle, only then would reaching for your pistol be a legitimate option - or reaching for it immediately after they stopped your vehicle, in order to be prepared.

I am very much pro-gun ownership and I think carrying a hand gun in your vehicle in case of an emergency is a legitimate thing to do. Just please don't jump the gun (pun intended) and reach for your pistol every time a driver pisses you off... otherwise you'd spend all of your time cocked and loaded and would probably never reach your destination

Hmm, it's probably splitting hairs now as to timing, but I would prefer to have gun in hand just a tad sooner, provided I am able to control the vehicle. I think that too is a legitmate option, but as I said before, YMMV. Besides, with a round in the pipe on my Glock, cocked and loaded is normal mode.

Though we strayed off topic a bit, the debate gave me the opportunity to resolve my position somewhat so I don't sound totally insane. Thanks for the respectable banter folks. I found it interestingly engaging.

Just curious, but what hand do you have your pistol in once its drawn? If you have to stop, you want to be able to get out since you're effectively unable to maneuver any further while still inside the vehicle. You have to put the vehicle into park, otherwise your vehicle may become a moving hazard. With the weapon in your right hand you'll have trouble with the shifter. With the weapon in your left hand, you won't be able to effectively shoot at someone directly at your driver side window. Plus right hand has to undo seatbelt and then open car door. Am I missing something? Where and how is everything positioned?

ROE for civilian driving in the supposedly friendly homeland. Surely some security-types out there have fine-tuned this topic?

It's given us a peek into your thought processes too. Benjamin my friend, I think you're carrying the full auto firearm incident (you experienced in Iraq?) over into your USA driving days. Then you had a serious guy with a serious firearm willing to do serious damage to you, and if I can be a half-assed analyst for a minute that bugged you out a bit. Enough to read potential personal aggression into crappy driving, and to arm up and be at the ready Just In Case.

I used to react alot like you for different reasons. Two things cured me, time and a much bigger guy than I could handle, who heard me cuss him out for cutting me off. We both stopped at a gas station, and I was ready to draw down in what I imagined the judge would call self-defense. He was big, calmly walked over to my car, and apologized for cutting me off. I said okay, and calmed down. In the same calm voice he said "You know you really should be careful what you say, it can land you in a word of hurt." I like to think I squeaked out my own apology for what I said, but I dont' think I really did.

Time made me realize that everyone is a crappy driver sometime, and if you make one bonehead maneuver every few years you are driving par for the course: at that point and no other, we are all the bad driver everyone else cusses at. Anyway, I think that and it calms me now.

Now that is a good dose of perspective.

I will still desire more to arm myself, just in case. Mr. Clown got a California Howdy after he got on his binders a second time and took a right turn, without signalling. I can chalk up his first mistake to just a foh-pah, and my reaction to want to grab a gun to just being me. The second mistake implies a deliberate disregard and lack of consideration for courtesy on the road, and so the requisite gesture of contempt on my part as I passed him by. At that point, it would've taken more than a simple apology from Mr. Clown to absolve his attitudinal disorder, had a confrontation ensued.

I was like this before I went to Iraq. Going there only made me moreso I reckon. I guess my processes aren't the model for others, but they work for me, and so far Mr. Lawman hasn't been given cause, yet. We'll see what happens if push ever does actually come to shove, though I figured long ago that most of the time I am only one or two steps away from being a convicted criminal.

No worries, take it with a grain of salt. One or two steps from being a criminal really says it all - exactly how I feel thinking back on my own near brush with involuntary manslaughter. Despite my own pro-2A stance, I think its overkill to be armed and ready for most driving incidents.

But there's no accounting for where other people drive, I've definitely driven in places with alot more aggression than the Pacific Northwest. Let us know though if you start seeing IEDs along the interstate though, I have a buddy who drove convoys to Baghdad for 26 months going through that now.

I can't resist..."faux pas". Now, draw down if you feel so inclined.

There are a least 20,000 people on this planet that are lucky that I don't have rocket launchers on my car or a UAV ("Stripes").

Hey, I'm from Texas, not France or New Orleans. The way I spelt it, I reckon more folks will be able recognize it, otherwise, someone's gonna go "what the heck is this fox pass thing?"

Rocket launchers, flame throwers, emg pulse machines, HO microwave horns, a 155mm bore, a phased plasma rifle in a 50 watt range, my wish list just goes on and on...

Top of my list is a large LED roof bar, that displays pre-programmed messages to the front and back of the car: forward messages display and scroll backwards, so the dillwad gets my message in his mirror.

Ooooee! Right up there with that 100 watt Federal PA system.

I loved those things, you could stuff the mic right up to your mouth so that all anyone could here outside is a bunch of jabber, with a few expeletives well enunciated. Kinda like Paw bear from the hillbilly bears Hanna/Barbera cartoon series, or maybe the instructor doofas from "Police Academy".

I have been instructing in law enforcement/corrections for the last couple of decades and this mental effort is a common technique and I've used it (training it as a tool) for several different groups. Rookies get taught to think ahead and create several 'visions' about the traffic stop they are about to make - what will the driver's reaction be and if it is A, I will do this and if B I will respond that way... etc. You get the idea. It's a very valid training/learning technique and strongly recommended for new and long-term use.

The chance to start treating everything as 'normal' is reduced by thinking this way and does give you a valuable edge in responding well in unexpected situations. It also really helps those long meetings go by too!

Paul -

I love that bear!!

Katie, here are a couple of articles about the Harold Fish case. Benjamin, of course this Fish case isn't the same as your statement. I was just a little shocked to hear of hands on a gun when someone pulls in front of another (most likely from not paying attention to their rear view mirror). Road rage killings seem too frequent in Dallas and other places, most/all of which are preventable by not carrying guns or reaching for a gun too fast when road rage wells up in a person.

http://www.paysonroundup.com/section/localnews/story/15361

http://www.paysonroundup.com/section/localnews/story/23977

I too have frequently wished I had purchased the missile launcher option for most of my vehicles! Too bad none of the stock vehicles tend to offer that option!! Then again perhaps the invisible disintegrating ray might produce less collateral damage to innocent bystanders!!

Yes, which is why I make the distinction between having the gun in my hand vs. pointing it at him. Mr. Clown would've had no way of knowing I had armed myself, nor would anyone else around us. Had he escalated the matter I would've been at the ready. As it was, as with all such incidents I've found myself in stateside, nothing more came of it, other than a few gestures and parting of ways. Nonetheless, I will continue my MO and plan for the worst, whenever I am smart enough to actually bring a weapon along with me, that is.

My first mistake is of course in not practicing what I preach. I should always remember to bring my pistol with me, and this episode just reinforces that. Sometimes I think I may never learn.

Silly, that's what the microwave emitter is... The magnetron used in modern microwaves is capable of far greater output than a mere 1,000 watts. Any idea what a 10,000 focused beam can do to a person 25 yards away in less than 30 seconds? heh heh heh...