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#120602 - 01/17/08 11:03 PM Re: Problems wih bugging out under Martial Law [Re: LED]
Arney Offline

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: LED
With their ability to respond quickly and cost effectively, understanding the future role(s) private security companies (blackwater, armourgroup, etc.) will play in emergency situations is something thats worth looking into.

Please set me straight if I am misreading your statement, but it sounds like you are not aware that Blackwater and AmourGroup were in NOLA right after Katrina. For example, this article.

I found it a bit disturbing in Katrina. Although the particular Washington Post article I referenced only mentioned that the contractors carried sidearms, other news articles from that time mentioned that they were heavily armed (well, like with M4's and body armor, not heavy machine guns). Some had even recently returned from tours in Iraq, and heaven only knows what kind of reflexes and responses you developed from being over there. In one article, one Blackwater contractor flashed a badge at the reporter and said that they'd all just been federally "deputized"--whatever that meant in this case and no one would say what agency deputized them. Could they arrest people? No one said. Anyway, it sounded like a recipe for disaster to me at the time.

#120607 - 01/17/08 11:21 PM Re: Problems wih bugging out under Martial Law [Re: Jeff_M]
Arney Offline

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Jeff_McCann
The events surrounding H. Katrina were hideously misreported, both by wild exaggeration and hysteria or lying, and by non-or-underreporting. What happened to those stacks of dead bodies reportedly at the Superdome? They didnít exist.

Thanks for bringing this point up, Jeff. The popular image of what happened during Katrina is very distorted, particularly the part about the alleged level of violence and mayhem. I don't think most people are aware that major news outfits like the Times-Picayune and LA Times later reported that most of what they initially published about Katrina was wrong, unsubstantiated rumors, or gross exaggerations.

#120620 - 01/18/08 12:24 AM Re: Problems wih bugging out under Martial Law [Re: Arney]
LED Offline

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1474
No I'm aware they were there, but I couldn't find out exactly what their responsibilities were from the articles I've read. Due to the "success" of their deplyment in NOLA, even though there are lingering questions about their authority/accountability, I'm wondering if current crisis management plans now include using these groups as part of the immediate response. Just like its cheaper and easier to hire an armed security guard at the grocery store vs. an off duty LEO, (no unions, etc) I'm sure its cheaper (and less time consuming) for a company like blackwater to police a neighborhood for the first 48 hrs. after a disaster than it would be to call in resources from neighboring counties and states. And not to mention, when the crisis is over, state/fed. agencies must deal with a whole new issue of getting those resources and personnel back to where they belong as quickly as possible. With a private company, they don't have to worry about any of that. And, in their re-election campaign, politicians can brag about how much money they saved the taxpayer. Okay, that last part was a joke, sort of. I'm not saying its a good idea but considering the cost and ease of use, I think private policing is here to stay.

#120626 - 01/18/08 12:48 AM Re: Problems wih bugging out under Martial Law [Re: LED]
Jeff_M Offline

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 665
Loc: Northwest Florida
Other than NOLA after H. Katrina, I've never seen any shortage of LEO types at any disaster. Indeed, quite the opposite seems to be the usual case.

We emergency services folks usually like the overtime pay, and being on-duty usually means access to hot chow, showers and other amenities not so easy to come by off-duty for the local emergency services folks. The non-local folks include a plethera of Federal LEO types from innumerable alphabet soup agencies (FBI, FPS, DOJ, BOP, ICE, etc.), as well as the aforementioned people "borrowed," at federal expense, from nearby local and state jurisdictions.

Moreover, the feds reimburse local and state governments for the OT. Personally, there is even reimbursement for OT costs available to my regular employer while I'm deployed, and of course I get a federal paycheck while federally activated.

I don't really see a need for private spooks to do policing, when Sheriff Bubba's off duty guys and gals can be put on the clock, and he can just pick up the phone and have Sheriff Cletus send over a bunch of his deputies, too. Remember, any local, county, or state LEO is ALWAYS an LEO, trained according to that state's standards, ANYWHERE in that state, at least under most state laws. So there's no legal problem with authority or jurisdiction, nor usually one with training, standards, orientation, communications, procedures, etc.


#120695 - 01/18/08 06:23 PM Re: Problems wih bugging out under Martial Law [Re: Jeff_M]
Madbomber_Mike Offline

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 54
Loc: The End of the World, Iraq
OK, good point, but that was about as close as you can get without declaring it, and it definitely carried all the vestiges of martial law. Being from that town, it needed it for a couple more weeks after we got the order to move out...
"There is no human problem that cannot be solved with an appropriate quantity of High Explosives!"

#129565 - 04/08/08 11:03 AM Re: Problems wih bugging out under Martial Law [Re: Madbomber_Mike]
Smackdaddyj Offline

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 13
Any form of smoke (cooking, warmth, etc.) will draw the kind of people that you don't want around you. Although it may also draw those genuinely seeking help, and ready to do what they can to assist you. But you should be VERY careful about fire at all under these circumstance until you are a good distance from those you belive may be interested in doing you harm...and I would maintain some kind of watch even after that.

As far as soldiers vs cops, I have been both. Cops are trained (and I mean trained) to trick you into giving up your constitutional rights. I am not saying that they are all bad, but that is just the simple truth of it. Soldiers do what they are told. If they are told that no one is allowed to walk around after dark, then they do their best to make sure no one is walking around after dark, and so on. Either way, both would be a threat to you, the person attempting to leave a quarantined area, and not your friend. At least if you have any advantage over your fellow citizens. That is to say that if you are more prepared than they are, your supplies will be readily taken from you to "help" everyone. Reminds me of welfare and social security.

I don't think the circumstances surrounding the ML would matter all that much, other than determining what you might be trying to carry out with you, if it is there, you will be pulled into the crowd, and if you resist, well...

I think Russ makes one of the best points, if you see something coming that is a genuine threat, try to get out before there is a mad rush, ie. Hurricain Katrina. And while all of the things that the government could do may not be done in that situation, shouldn't you be prepared for it anyway. If they allow you to walk out of the city carrying a rifle and toting a pack, great, but what if they don't?

One other note on authority and private security. I am not sure how it works exactly in other states, but in FL, the sherrif of a county can "deputize" anyone he wishes to act on his behalf. That is, if he wanted to deputize a private company, he has that authority. I don't think it would be a good idea in most cases, but he could do it nonetheless. Concerning BW, I have a buddy who works with them and was in NOLA, and I have firsthand account that they were sent in, before the levvies broke, to start confiscating firearms. Who sent them and by waht jurisdiction seems to still be under the table, but it happened nonetheless. The reason given the guys that went in was that they feared riots, and thought that disarmed crowds would be easier to handle. But in the long run, this may have added to the problem by creating people who thought the Feds were there to take their liberties and not help.

Things to think about.


#130118 - 04/14/08 04:08 PM Re: Problems wih bugging out under Martial Law [Re: Smackdaddyj]
BrianWorf Offline

Registered: 03/25/08
Posts: 5
Loc: Arlington, Texas, USA
Very Interesting thread. I hope that what Jeff is saying about the federal response is true, but...

In my area (Dallas - Ft. Worth, Texas) there is a fairly large federal depot that has lots of stuff in it. Generators of every size and shape, from small portable units to semi-trailers. There are also semi trailers with FEMA on them. There are literally hundreds of mobile homes (travel trailers). Also there are dozens of freezer semi-trailers. Basically lots of helpful things. The thing though that has me wondering, and seems to point to some form of potential refuge camp or incarceration facility, is the fence. Over the last few years they have been fortifying it with rail-road rails welded on the bottom and 3-strand barbed wire. The barbed wire points IN as if to contain people, as opposed to OUT to keep people out.

Any thoughts on this?

BTW, in the recent ice-storm and accompaning power outages in Oklahoma, I noticed several semis loaded with generators leaving the site and I assume, going to Oklahoma. They have some NICE generators. I drool everytime I drive past.

#130122 - 04/14/08 04:25 PM Re: Problems wih bugging out under Martial Law [Re: BrianWorf]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2811
Loc: La-USA
My guess is that your observaions are correct! Many such places exist around the country and more are bing constructed.

Can you say: "Crisis Relocation"? I can. I could say some other things but it's best to do you own research @ places like FEMA and Halliburton, Brown, & Root.
The best luck is what you make yourself!

#130128 - 04/14/08 05:40 PM Re: Problems wih bugging out under Martial Law [Re: wildman800]
BobS Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/08/08
Posts: 924
Loc: Toledo Ohio
Iím not sure the barbed wire pointing in is to keep people in. I live close to a refinery, the tank farm (must be 30 or 40 very large tanks in it) has the barbed wire pointing in. Itís been this way since the 1960s. They donít want people getting in there, they are not trying to contain anyone.

Edited by BobS (04/14/08 05:40 PM)

You can run, but you'll only die tired.

#130172 - 04/15/08 01:53 AM Re: Problems wih bugging out under Martial Law [Re: BobS]
OldBaldGuy Offline

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
I have seen a lot of fences configured in this manner, and it never makes any sense to me. Even one CHP parking lot. My guess is that the educated idiots who designed the fence had not a shread of common sense. It is pretty easy to hop over a fence with the angled part pointing in the direction you want to go, much harder if you are climbing against the angle...

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