Does anyone know where I can buy personal/compact size bottles of potassium permanganate and glycerin? All the sizes i have seen are a minimum of a gallon and with a cost in the triple digits.
Thanks!

try e-bay I got a 1 0z. bottle from somebody on e-bay. no glycerin thou.

i got glycerin at my local rite-aid, for about 1 of 1 1/2 dollars for 2 ounces... I got the potassium parmenganate in a chemistry kit.(13 remember??)..the website i usually get all my chems from doesnlt sel it anyore (you can try it www.unitednuclear.com) It is a realy really quick flame. My dad got mad at me for doing it in my driveway but whatever. Have fun!!

If you have a Sears Hardware store locally you can buy 8 oz bottles . They are with the water sterilization supplies. As far as glycerin, pretty much any drug store such as walgreens has them. You can also use radiator fluid which has worked better for me.

If the other suggestions don't work out for you, you can shop online at The Chemistry Store for Potassium Permanganate ($14.00 for a 2 lb pail) and Glycerin ($10.00 for a 1 qt bottle).

Jim

Thanks for all the sources guys! I will post up once I get the goods.

You can get glycerin from veterinary supply places, or horse supply places, about $30/gal.
http://www.kyhorse.com/store/health/liniments/glycerine.htm

Sue

What is glycerin used for in survival?

glycerin and potasium parmangenate mixed together give you a very strong blaze... Glycerin can be used as an aid for chapped skin when mixed with water (2-3 parts)

Glycerin suppositories make small, individually enclosed containers for fire starting. They also serve the original purpose as a laxative should you need that...

I was curious what the ratio of these two chemicals should be to achieve complete combustion but couldn't find anything online, so I just ran the stoichiometry calculations and came up with the following:

Potassium Permanganate____KMnO4_______158.04 g/mol____2.70g/cm^3
Glycerin__________________C3H5(OH)3_____92.09 g/mol____1.26g/cm^3

Balanced chemical equation:

14KMnO4 + 4C3H5(OH)3 --> 7K2CO3 + 7Mn2O3 + 5CO2 + 16H2O

Reactants:

20.0g_____________KMnO4
3.33g_____________C3H5(OH)3

Products:

8.75g_____________K2CO3
9.99g_____________Mn2O3
1.99g_____________CO2
2.61g_____________H2O

Conversions:

1 cm^3 = 1 mL = 0.034 fl oz____________1 oz = 28.35g

Therefore:

20g KMnO4________=______0.705 oz______=______0.25 fl oz
3.33g C3H5(OH)3___=______0.117 oz______=______0.09 fl oz

Based on this ratio I will probably carry a 1 fl oz bottle of potassium permanganate along with a 1/2 fl oz bottle of glycerine (I have plenty of both of these sizes on hand) and know that I could start four fires with this quantity.

Perhaps one of the resident chemists or chemical engineers can double check my numbers when they have a few moments.

Jim

I found this glycerin at Walgreens for about $6.00
I will go to my local pool supply and see what they have for the potassium later.

Here is a video to give you an idea of the ratio.
Obviously if you put this on top of some tinder, you will be happy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVt89BtiC0s

I wonder where in sears you'll find it looked today but did'nt find it. Will look again tomorrow.

Lee

Is the waste product of the combustion safe? Or maybe a better question is; Would an environmentalist be OK with using this way of firestarting?

The majority of environmentalists that I've actually had the pleasure of meeting seemed sincerely upset that there are people living on Earth, so this would likely be seen as a major contributor to global warming and the recession of the polar ice caps.

As a side note, have you ever noticed that most feminine environmentalists use hyphenated last names?

The products of combustion shown above are K2CO3, Mn2O3, CO2, H2O (more commonly referred to as salt, carbon dioxide, and water) so this reaction is really no more destructive to the planet's ecosystem than lighting off a REI stormproof match or two.

Jim

Like there aren't fifty quicker, easier, cheaper ways to start a fire???

Sue

LOL

For me it's about options and thinking outside the box.

50? Oh please...

Perhaps the abundance of self-proclaimed experts found on the internet (of course not to imply that you're claiming to be one Susan) has made me cynical, but forgive me for calling BS to that statement.

50?

If I honestly thought that you or anyone else could name even ten, let alone fifty methods that were quicker, easier, and cheaper ways to start a fire in a wilderness survival scenario, I would be truly humbled and impressed.

For sake of argument, assume for a moment that you were in a survival situation consisting of the following elements:

1). You find yourself alone in the wilderness 40 miles from home. Since you've actually never completed your ETS profile I have no idea where that would be, so for the purposes of this example let's assume that you are somewhere in the Pisgah National Forest of the Blue Ridge Mountains, SW of Asheville, NC.

2). Since you knew you would be secluded in the wilderness for several days and have learned much about preparation over the past four years as an active member of the ETS forum, you have a very well equipped BoB with you. Just to make things really easy let's also assume that regardless of the weight or bulk of the items that you have chosen to carry, your BoB actually contains anything and everything that you have ever carried with you into the wilderness at anytime in the past.

3). You are below the treeline, so tinder, kindling, and fuel is plentiful. Nature's bounty has provided you with an abundance of resources to start your fire. Unfortunately the paradox of wilderness fire building is that the most difficult time to build one is when you actually need one the most. Thus the elements have somewhat conspired against you in that the ground is covered with approximately four inches of snow and ice, the sky is densely overcast, darkness is fast approaching, the wind has picked up and begins to swirl from all directions through the canyons and foothills, and although there is no standing water, everything is damp from several previous days of rain.

4). You find yourself suffering from Stage 2 hypothermia and are slightly dehydrated since your potable water supply ran out yesterday morning. Without a fire to provide warmth and a means to melt snow, you face the realization that it is unlikely that you will survive through the night.

5). A freak accident earlier in the day has resulted in three broken fingers on your (weak side) hand. Between the pain and the bulk of the splints/bandages, you are limited to the use of your other (strong side) hand only.

With the exception of the broken fingers (and of course the magical BoB that contained anything and everything that I have ever carried into the wilderness) I have actually found myself in a very similar situation at 6,500 feet in the Sierra Nevada's. Thankfully my water supply had not run out the day before and I wasn't suffering from Stage 2 hypothermia, but I was cold and wet and knew that building a shelter and starting a fire was imperative.

For less than $10.00 you can purchase enough potassium permanganate (16 oz), glycerin (8 fl oz), and poly containers to start literally dozens of fires. For 20 cents worth of chemicals weighing less than an ounce (including the poly containers) you could very easily start a fire in less than half a minute, using damp tinder and kindling, one-handed, in the above described scenario.

Between these two non-toxic chemicals, they can be used for numerous other beneficial purposes including drinking water treatment and deodorization, as a disinfectant, to kill germs and prevent bacterial infections, as a gargle, medicinally to treat oral and sinus infections, dermatitis, canker sores, dry skin, chapped lips, athlete's foot, wound cleansing, and as an antidote for phosphorus poisoning. They can also be used to make soap, as a bleach, a solvent, a thickening agent, a laxative, or even as a food sweetener.

So please bring the tech, and outline for me the quicker/easier/cheaper methods of starting a fire in the above scenario for less than 20 cents, in less than 30 seconds, using only one hand. I'll even start the list:

1). Use a mini Bic lighter to ignite a handfull of dryer lint
2).
3).
4).
5).
6).
7).
8).
9).
10).

Jim

I saw glycerin for sale at Rite-Aid today. It was in a small (maybe 6-8 oz.) and in the first-aid aisle, sold as a "skin protectant."

I would not try to keep any mixture like this in a closed container. Youtube has some clips with the mixture of chlorine and alcohol causing explosions, and at least one is pretty morbid.

250 ways to start a fire.

Did you mean different ways? just kidding. FYI, there are other chemicals that you can use in place of glycerin, I don't remember all of them but I think sugar and anti-freeze were a couple. So if by chance you were stuck in the wilderness and happened to have a bottle of PP, you could theoretically use the antifreeze you have stored in your trunk to start a fire. Of course, that's assuming your cigarette lighter doesn't work and you have no matches or lighter.

I still have a bottle of Potassium Permaganate hidden somewhere. As a practical firestarter for emergencies, I can't really see the need since there are many better ways of doing it. But for entertainment, it sure is fun. Since there's a delayed reaction, a neat trick is to set everything up ahead of time then amaze people by appearing to start a fire just by staring at it.

don't forget about chlorine & any kind of oil,,,,not that I would know anything about this subject matter!!!

Also for the sake of argument, I would have to ask, with three broken fingers and hypothermia, how would opening two separate bottles and combining the two chemicals together be easier than just flicking a bic lighter? For less than $1 and a fraction of an ounce, I can buy a 4 pack of butane lighters capable of starting thousands, if not tens of thousands of fires. Not trying to be argumentative, but you can always come up with a hypothetical situation where this specific method might be the best one, but you gotta ask yourself, how realistic is it? I suppose if I were stranded in the wilderness, with a severe case of athlete's foot, chapped lips and constipation, had nothing but bland, unsweetened food and suffering from a minor case of phosphrous poisoning and body odor, then I'd be grateful to have these chemicals. But then I'd have to ask myself, would i rather start a fire or take care of my athlete's foot?

Assuming that you had actually packed in dry tinder, it wouldn't be, and thus the mini Bic option is listed first on the list.

The poly containers that I use are less than two inches in length, so with the base resting in the palm of one's hand, the cap is very easily removed with the thumb and index finger.


I could have just as easily described a scenario where it was 76 degrees, 20% relative humidity, clear skies with bright sunshine, calm winds, and you had a quart of charcoal fluid and a Bic multi-position barbecue lighter but that would be called a picnic, not a wilderness survival scenario.

I'm sure that we could come up with thousands of different scenarios, but asking how realistic any of them are seems like a moot point to me. The objective of this forum is to prepare ourselves for any situation we might find ourselves in, isn't it?

One could just as easily ask how many of the 3,300+ currently registered members on this board have ever been, or will likely ever be, in a legitimate life-or-death survival scenario. Of those rare occurrences, what are the odds of us actually having half the necessary gear that we all choose to spend money on?

If you want to discuss realism, perhaps you could explain to me what realistic scenario is actually going to befall all of us and send us prancing into the woods with our BoB's strapped on our backs for 72 hours, only to return home three days later when everything is back to normal.

I can't speak for you, but I don't spend the thousands of dollars that I do on all the latest gear because I think I will need it to save my life in the near future, but rather I simply think of it as a somewhat practical hobby, and enjoy the peace of mind that comes with knowing that in the 6.022 E-6 chance I'll ever need any of it, I'll have it and know how to use it.

Realistically, the two primary things that will kill most people in the wilderness are hypothermia and dehydration, so these threats obviously place a premium on fire building skills for warmth and sustainable water purification. As such, I place a larger degree of importance on this skill than I do any other. The items I choose to carry, and the level of redundancy, also reflect this fact.

I chose to list some of the other uses of these chemicals to illustrate just how multi-purpose they are. I would venture to guess that very few of us would ever consider going into the wilderness for an extended period of time without a sharp knife, a multi-tool, a hank of paracord, and a bandana (among other items). The fact that these items have multiple uses make them virtually indispensible to us.

I'm confident that I could be thrown into the woods with nothing but a bathing suit on and still fashion a bow drill by weaving grass or vines for the bow and carving the drill, socket, and fireboard from a sharp stone, but that doesn't mean it will be my first choice given other options.

My EDC includes a mini Bic and a firesteel with Tinder-Quik. And understand when I say my EDC, I mean EDC -- if I'm outside the house I have these items with me in my pockets. My vehicle and wilderness kits have numerous other firemaking items, again, because I place a high degree of redundancy on this important skill.

The entire point of my original post is that I can think of very few ways in which one could start a fire successfully given the worst of conditions (i.e. wet tinder, darkness, wind, reduced mobility/dexterity, etc.). Even a child that doesn't yet know how to strike a match or flick a Bic could pour some glycerin on a small mound of potassium permanganate and have a sustained 2000°F flame burning within a few seconds.

Jim

The unused potassium permanganate itself is fairly poisonous, and you should keep it away from fish.

Quite a few of its applications are based on this. It can be used as water purification, antiseptic and disinfectant depending on concentration. You can use it as a dye to attract attention, but I wouldn't do that casually because of the possible danger to wildlife.

hey...thats an idea if you are in a reletivly small pond and theres fish swimming in it you could dump in the potassium parmangenate and hay plenty of food?? here is a list of all of the ways I have in my pack to light a fire

1 frensel lens...easy on a sunny day (5)
2 bic lighter (1)
3 strike anywere matches AND lifeboat matches (2)
4 magnesium fire starting block(6)
5 ferrocerium rod(fire steel) (3)
6 fire piston (4)
7 flint and steel(7)
8 fire plow(don;t bring it but can make one(9)
9 potassium permengenate and glycerin(8)


Tinder

Ranger rubber bands
charcloth
jute twine (tons of it)
manilla rope (for the nest)
petrolium jelly coated cotton balls
maya wood


all of this is carried in my kit (usually) and im only 13... I keep a bag that can be put on my belt with all of this in it... the bag can actually be burned also. I am allowed to practice my fire skills in my garage with the door open and on the concrete so I feel like I can use all of these things well. If I had to start a fire and I could choose one of the above things from each list I would probably choose my fire steel( I love that thing) and just twine (a whole roll of it could start thousands of fires (i usually use just 1-3 inches of it per fire..)

right on bro, thats impressive!

On the same note, and something that annoys me quite a bit actually...

Can anyone please point me to a good video showing someone actually making fire in pouring rain? I always seem to stumble on the "make fire during nice weather" videos.


Try making fire outdoors in the rain forest during the rainy season
I have and it is not easy. You really need some good dry kindling and sometimes that is not even enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB6I9jO_lg4

Eddie Stone shows the Potassium Permanganate and glycerin fire lighting trick at the end of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU1VDzqo8T0

I prefer a small tube of Halfords bicycle Tyre Rubber Solution to start a fire (a reliable way to get butyl rubber tubing to catch from a single spark)

i ran this photo a few years ago,a one match fire made after a downpour.i found enough small dry sticks and some birch bark to get a fire going and added more until it was going and drying the wood above it.i did not split open any sticks to get to the dry wood inside.



if i had wanted a fire in the rain i would have found the most sheltered spot i could find,even if it was not where i wanted the fire in the end.any dry overhang anyplace would work and once going moved to where ever.if nothing close then a hasty shelter of leafy branches with something like a undershirt over it to keep out the worse of the rain.i have done a lot of camping and it takes a huge bonfire,well fed,to keep something going in the rain.without a tarp or shelter a fire will be over powered sooner or later.look what your wearing,that tee shirt will dry if you get a fire going,same with a jacket,even a hat over the first sticks will keep off enough rain to get something going.a square foot of foil from a kit would work great.this would be the time to really think.down on your belly and striking a match to kindling inside the hollow part of a log and then moving that fire to a bigger pile of sticks would be better than running down a Bic huddled over a wet firewood pile out in the open.so on-----

Thanks, I have seen these before, they are rather good but still, they do not show fire making in pouring rain.

Be very careful about how you store the potassium permanganate. It reacts with a lot of different chemicals & its environmentally hazardous. One or two of them are somewhat more vigorous than glycol.

http://www.reagent.co.uk/uploads/msds/POTASSIUM%20PERMANGANATE%205%20percent%20W%20V.pdf

You bring up a very important point. My experience with any liquids stored over a relatively long period of time is that they will leak. The worst case was a bottle of betadine inside a FAK that leaked, fouling the zipper so that I had to cut the case open to access the contents.

Leakage of potassium permanganate could be exciting, to say the least...

Potassium permanganate is generally stored as powder, or rather crystals, and not as a liquid. Like that it's relatively easy to store, but you need to be sure nothing else will leak into it.

Storing glycerine without leakage is harder. Therefore it needs to be kept well separate to the potassium permanganate. You don't want them both in the same pocket in containers that might be compromised if you somehow fall on them, for example. Not that matches are entirely safe, either, or a BIC, but these chemicals scare me more.

They aren't not a great way to start a fire anyway, especially if it is cold.

Aren't not? My brain hurts...

Sears sold small bottles of potassium permanganate for cleaning water softener resins. I can't recall where I picked up the glycerin. I think the drug store.

RE: This reply to the thread ...

"I prefer a small tube of Halfords bicycle Tyre Rubber Solution to start a fire (a reliable way to get butyl rubber tubing to catch from a single spark)"

OK ... I'll bite.
Can you elaborate on the fire starting with the tire (tyre) rubber kit. That's a new one to me.

cheers,
other Pete

I would venture to say that Am_Fear is referring to the glue that typically comes with bicyle tire patch kits. It is extremely flammable and many people will set a match to the glue then quickly blow out the flame before applying the patch. The reason for the flame was to get the glue hotter as it supposedly causes the patch to stick better and dry faster to the tube.

My experience after patching too many flat tubes (until I discovered Tuffy tire liners) is that I never resorted to the match and flame, rather I just applied the glue and waited a few minutes for it to dry enough and stuff the tube back into the tire and pump it up with air.

Now days some people carry small strips of used bicycle inner tube in their survival kits as it does burn very well on it's own. If you happen to be carrying patch glue, you have the perfect combo for a surefire, fire starter.

These type of rubber solution are simply a very flammable rubber based glue. Most types of rubber, car tyres, cycle inner tubes, ranger bands (same thing) take a flame from a lighter (preferred) and burn hot and long. They have the great advantage that they are cheap, easy to obtain and storable.

Another alternative is rubber cement! i dont know if it ignites from a spark, someone is gonna have to try this... I burnt up my last bottle

I am disappointed and underwhelmed by the flamability of your common hand sterilizing alcohol gel. It burns, but not really intense nor impressive. I was unable to lit it with a spark at room temperature. I think it's 70% alcohol or so, my bottle doesn't list it. For this stuff to really BURN I guess you have to heat it so more volatile alcohol fumes are released.

I tried smearing it on cotton balls to see if that was an improvement. It was - but you all know how the cotton ball catches a spark and ignites like crazy. Nothing revolutionary there. Alcohol gel cotton balls are much inferior to petroleum jelly cotton balls.

So - nothing impressive in terms of alcohol gel. Having heard the urban legend about the guy who managed to set his own hands on fire after using alcohol gel I really expected it to be a bit more volatile. Nope. So the H1N1-virus aftermath does little good in providing good fire starters everywhere

I guess it still is an option if nothing else is available. Keep that "else" option available, that's what I say.

Your comment was interesting as I thought that sanitizer (70% alcohol) would readily ignite from a spark. I tried quite a few times with my Swedish Steel (which you barely see in my hand the top left of the photo) and could not get the sanitizer to light up. It was only when I put a match or lighter to it that a flame resulted. This is good to know as I always carry as small bottle of sanitizer in the kit and now know what works and what doesn't work..

BTW, that is my fav backpacking dinner plate. Cheap ($2.97), very light and very versatile 6" aluminum pizza pan...

Here is a little video of the Halfords Rubber cement taking a spark from a Swedish firesteel. (it also doubles up as a way to fix a bicyle puncture if you have some patches as well)


http://www.amfearliathmor.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/DSCF3001_reduced320.avi (2.8 Meg)

How about a small bottle of nailpolish or nailpolish remover (acetone)? Anyone tried that?

Clear nail polish can be used to treat cuts. It also kills germs, but I would feel safer with New-Skin (available at Walmart)

Many nail polish removers aren't acetone any more.