I'm looking for recommendations and feedback on bio suits, masks, etc, prices seem to vary from $10 to $900, I'm looking for short term equipment that will serve to enable leaving a contaminated area to relocate in the event of a biological incident, I have seen articles about the government apparently not being able to account for defective suits and bio equipment, is it possible this defective equip has made it's way to the consumer public retail outlets and is unknowingly being sold? Any comments on this will be much appreciated, chamelion [color:"black"] [/color]

Addendum to post-well I guess the topic of preparing for a possible biological incident is something people are afraid to discuss. I see there were 42 inquiries but no responses. Bio-terrorism is a reality and needs to be included in preparadness plans along with possible nuclear incidents. Well I'll move on from this forum and find the needed information from a source that isn't afraid to discuss such topics. Good luck to you all

This weekend I attended yet another lecture on Bio/Chem/Nuke terrorism and that maybe changed my mind about the entire ordeal a bit. Mix it with my EMT Bio/Chem. response training and Army training I came to some conclusions.

-in order to properly use equipment you need training and you have to maintain your skills.
-equipment has to be maintained and that's get expensive
-decon areas has to be established. If you put on your bio suit and leave contaminated area (example NYC) and drive to other area (example Jersey City) you just successfully migrated germs/virus etc etc. Actually using 9/11 facts. If bio weapons were used half the NY, NJ and PA would be wiped out. The only place that had a decon area was Jersey City and they treated anyone coming from NYC with a nice a healthy shower.
-lets say that you are going to dodge the gear in area where there is no people. You will contaminate yourself from the surface of the suit.
-there is a lot of surplus stuff out there which will give you a false sense of security. Chinese gas masks, Russian Bio suits… Those things were not tested, improperly stored, abused and than sold as novelty items. Do you thing that poor country like Russia is going to sell good stuff? They would rather keep old but still good equipment rather than manufacturing new ones. They are just getting rid of “cold war” relics.
-new equipment is gov’t regulated (mostly) and expensive to begin with. Most of the professional suits have separate respirators which only last certain amount of time
-where are you going to go? In the even of chem./bio attack the entire are will get quarantined and separated. And if you are in the epi center of the attack your will be contaminated before you put on your suit.
-where are you going to keep your suit? Home? Car? Carry it in your backpack? We were told to be on the lookout for prepared individuals because they may as well be the one who started something. Remember when everyone buying large quantities of Ciprio was targeted as a potential anthrax terrorist?
-with public on the edge there are con artists ready to make a buck. $500 for a gas mask? There was an article in Time that stated that a man few blocks away from Ground Zero is ready to retire from sales of gas masks and other protective equipment.

Now if you really are interested in purchasing one look at www.galls.com. They have some decent gear that we use and train with.

There is a lot of ifs and buts out there and a lot of people are scared. A lot of those things are exaggerated. Yes there is danger and possibility but the scale of the account and people not being informed the right way is the reason that any type of act of terrorism will have greater psychological impact than actual physical one. I looked at the radius of the strike from nuclear bomb that was used on Hiroshima. Than I compared it with what is dear to me which is NYC. The damage wasn’t so great if you really look at it (about ten city blocks) but also one has to understand that no country (except Russia) would be able to launch such a strike against the US. The biggest possibility is a dirty bomb that would just contaminate couple of blocks. Chemical weapons are also very unlikely to be used on our soil due to their price and size. The most dangerous thing probably is bio weapon because it’s cheap and easy to make. But even that it is limited. Units in NYC are right now being equipped with Mark 1 kits to help people in case of bio attack. But again if you leave the area being infected nobody can help you. The best thing is to stay put and being cleared by medics. A lot will say that this is attitude is the same one that sheep have when they are being lead to the slaughter house. That it’s not true. Sometimes you have to trust others in order to get up and fight another day.


Matt

i really doubt the effetivenis of bio suits and masks, since people dont know wenn and were a atack takes place. So you may be infected without knowing it. a suit and mask only protects you wenn your wearing it, so you have to wear it constantly... another isue is, wenn a NBC situation accure and you are the only person with NBC suit and suit, there will be a high change people pull it of you...

Well stated Matt. As a firefighter/EMT/Haz-Mat tech/Instructor, I can suggest we don't get so bent out of shape worrying about WMD events that it alters our lives. What we can do however, is make an evaluation of what we would possibly need to survive without electricity, banking, fuel, etc.... for an extended period of time. Living in the Mid-west, this has become a topic for seasonal survival with weather extremes (tornados, blizzards, heat, etc...). As a hazardous materials technician and instructor........my biggest fear in terms of a WMD event would have to be the dispersion of a virus. Virus' are extremely small, (think of a typical bacteria.....say it's the size of a mini-van, ok, now the virus is the size of the cigarette lighter inside that mini-van). Yes, a far-out analogy, however I hope you get the point. Surplus military "gas" masks are/were effective for the products they were designed to safeguard against. Not one mask will do the job for all WMD threats. Fortunately for us (the responders), we use high quality SCBA and have a choice of several different level A & B suits to choose from. Personally, aside from my work environment, if I absolutely had to have some sort of bio/chem. ensemble at home or in the car, I would choose a Tyvek suit, latex inner gloves/pvc outer gloves, an APR (air purifying respirator) with two or three specific filters and a pair of oversized pull over rubber boots. Keep in mind this is equipment I would only consider wearing for a limited time, then decon and disposal. Furthermore regarding the topic of bio/chem. equipment & supplies and their purchase/use, one has to really consider the everyday tasks (eating, drinking, personal hygiene, sleep, etc...), and question if you and your family can really do this while wearing a bio/chem. protective ensemble.




"Live like you will die tomorrow", "Learn like you will live forever" M.Ghandi

Don't forget the duct tape and bleach!

But seriously folks . . .

You could spend hundreds of dollars (or whatever the going rate is nowadays) for a MOPP suit and Pro-Mask, but then what? Once you pop the seals, they are exposed to the air and the effectiveness does diminish over time.

Are you going to carry this gear with you ALL the time everywhere you go? The only gear that works is the gear that you have with you.

In order to increase the chances of effectiveness, you would have to be wearing this gear pre-exposure.

What about training? Will you know how to properly deploy your equipment? Atropine/2-Pam chloride? Decon? How will you know it is all clear? These agents are not easily detected without the proper equipment. Even with the right equipment you can still get false readings.

You state you are planning on getting this gear to leave the contaminated area. Do you have alternate routes in the inevitable event of gridlock/road closures?

The best plans fail first contact.

What happens if you make it to where you wanted to go? If there was exposure, your suit may have protected you, but you have to assume your suit is contaminated. Who will decon you? How will they decon you?

I won't even talk about trying to use the bathroom in one of these things! <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Are Bio-Terrorism or Nuclear Incidents really a reality?

Look at the damage in South Korea. A milk carton of flamable fluid, 125 dead, many more missing.

I am not saying that your concerns are not legit, but rather to look at the big picture.

Its always a trade-off. <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You would be better off being just prepared in general. At least 3-5 days of incidentals. Look at the snowstorm in the east coast as an example. Earthquake preparadness would be another...

bmrdude (or anyone else who'd like to respond),

I've heard that you can use a standard cotton air filter (like you get at the hardware store for putting up insulation) sprayed lightly with lysol as temporary protection in the event of a bio attack. Since this would be cheap and field expedient, it would be very useful if its true.

Since your an expert on this, in your opinion, is there any truth to this claim?

Thanks in advance,

Ben

I absolutely disagree with your comment that " Not one mask will do the job for all WMD threats."

As a member of one of three federal teams that responds to chemical and biological events (we are on a deployment now) we use off the shelf equipment that is available through Lab Safety. Nothing magic just full faced powered respirators, chemical filter cartridges, and TYVEK suits, rubber gloves and boots.

Military masks are in fact effective for the range of chemical and biological agents that we are concerned about. HOWEVER, surplus masks are just that, surplus. Declared surplus due to age, defects, damage, and overuse. The filters are not fresh and in most cases are training filters, not "war" filters. Nor have they ben maintained or stored properly.

I would not risk my life with a surplus parachute or a surplus protective mask. Avoid them like the plague.

People try to make this stuff far more complicated than it really is. You just need to keep the chemical vapor away from you until it evaporates or is neutralized by the sun. I cannot envision the release of a contagious infectious organism such as smallpox, as it will spread back to the third-world paradise that it came from and kill the people that released it.

Regards

Having worked with infectious agents for the last 27 years, I can tell you that the contact time required to kill some of the more resistant organisms is considerable. Lysol is not the best chemical agent out there, it is only a disinfecting agent not a sterilent and even at that requires a long contact time. As Beachdoc has stated in his last post, LabSafety as well as a few other laboratory supply companies sell very effective respiratory protective devices. For surface decontamination, the cheapest and most widely available chemical disinfectant remains to be unscented household bleach. We use it extensively in the lab at a 10% concentration, but even a 5% solution is highly effective in decontaminating clean surfaces. Pete

A standard NIOSH HEPPA filter like they sell at Lowes (N-95) is adequate for biological agent filtration. It offers NO protection against chemical agents or toxic vapors.