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#124953 - 02/23/08 04:24 PM Re: Buying my first rifle...looking for advice [Re: mtnhiker]
bigmothertrucker Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 79
Loc: Alberta
Quote:
In which case the 500 series Mossbergs would be just as durable as the 870's....


correct me if I was wrong on this but I was led to believe that the Mossberg 500/590 was the ONLY gun to ever pass the U.S Marine torture test trials a bunch of years ago. There is a huge write up on it somewhere on the web. I love the 870 but there is no dought in my mind that the Mossberg is plenty tough just like it is. unless you are using it as a jack handel to jack up your car then there is very little chance of breaking it outside of abusing it.

as for the accuracy of it I know my friend -who I cant help but refer to on any gun topic , by now you all know who I mean-uses a scope on his 500 and by using some top of the line discarding sabot slugs can consistantly place shots in a paper plate from the kneeling position from 175-200 yards with ease. I havent hunted yet but from what I understand most deer are taken well under that range anyway. This is the solution for some of my other friends who hunt as well because in Alberta you are only allowed to use shotguns in certain hunting zones. usually the ones closer to towns etc. in fact some newer discarding shells say on the box that they can actually exceed the performance of some centerfire rifles.
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"Knowledge without experience is just information" - Mark Twain

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#124954 - 02/23/08 04:37 PM Re: Buying my first rifle...looking for advice [Re: bigmothertrucker]
Paul810 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
Originally Posted By: bigmothertrucker
Quote:
In which case the 500 series Mossbergs would be just as durable as the 870's....


correct me if I was wrong on this but I was led to believe that the Mossberg 500/590 was the ONLY gun to ever pass the U.S Marine torture test trials a bunch of years ago. There is a huge write up on it somewhere on the web. I love the 870 but there is no dought in my mind that the Mossberg is plenty tough just like it is. unless you are using it as a jack handel to jack up your car then there is very little chance of breaking it outside of abusing it.


IIRC, the 870 was not tested in those trials. Which makes me wonder what shotguns, other than the Mossberg, they did test?

With that said, mossy's have seen military service for years with good results, so I wouldn't have a problem owning one.

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#124957 - 02/23/08 05:12 PM Re: Buying my first rifle...looking for advice [Re: Paul810]
bigmothertrucker Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 79
Loc: Alberta
aparently rem declined the offer to participate in the testing. they had the better part of the market anyway so winning the contract would have made little difference to their sales. losing on the other hand would have been devastating. this is what I have gathered from the net anyway.

for hacksaws use, the only notable difference will be in the check book as the rem 870 sells for a few hundred dollars more with in my opinion the same level of performance. both are good guns and from my shooting exp they perform the same.

you can almost buy a ruger 10/22 and a mossberg 500 for the price of the 870 though.
_________________________
"Knowledge without experience is just information" - Mark Twain

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#124961 - 02/23/08 05:44 PM Re: Buying my first rifle...looking for advice [Re: bigmothertrucker]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Spend some time with the carry and hunting regulations for your state and city before any purchase, before doing any modification, and at least once a year after that. Best source for updated regs may be online. Don't rely on your buddies' for the straight scoop; it's your neck on the line.

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#125011 - 02/24/08 02:50 AM Re: Buying my first rifle...looking for advice [Re: bigmothertrucker]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
I don't know about scopes, but I can hit a plate sized target with slugs from my rifle sighted 18" barreled 870 at 100 yards with no problem...
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#125013 - 02/24/08 02:53 AM Re: Buying my first rifle...looking for advice [Re: MDinana]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
"...being you're in Canada (IIRC), I'd maybe peruse some of the weapons made by countries similar in latitude..."

In that case, think SMLE Endfields. Nothing wrong with them at all...
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#125079 - 02/24/08 05:24 PM Re: Buying my first rifle...looking for advice [Re: OldBaldGuy]
andygold Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/19/08
Posts: 2
Loc: way northern NY
Here's some miscellaneous, disjointed, ramblings smile ...I'm looking at this strictly from a survival standpoint. This might not be what you had in mind from your original post, but if it's not, it's an alternate view....if this is going to be a SHTF defense gun (this is ETS Forums, right?), then ammo supply will be extremely important. If you might be on the move, you are going to want a calibre that is readily available. AFAIK, Canadian military forces predominantly use the C7 & C8 carbine, both chambered for 5.56x45mm NATO (similar to .223). They are basically AR15/M16 rifles and carbines. If you want to be ETS, rifles in those calibers would be high on my list. You will need to be able to find/buy/barter for readily available ammo. Parts availability is also important. Can you readily get parts?
In my collection, I have an FN PS90 carbine. Great little weapon for what it was designed for (CQB)....rear echelon troops (cooks/medical/support/messengers/etc...) who could not carry around a full sized battle rifle. Superior to a 9mm pistol against adversaries equipped with body armor. Almost no muzzle rise or recoil. Stays where you aim it, on target, even in full auto. Great all around carbine IMHO for plinking and home defense. Only thing is, replacement/repair parts are ONLY available through FN, and that's if you ship the whole carbine back to them. In an ETS scenario, that probably won't be my go to gun. I'd probably take an AR15 or an AK47 variant, with the AK better suited for taking game (there are better calibers for game mind you). I do recognize though that AK ammo and parts would not be readily available in a SHTF scenario.

For example, you might have an old .303 Enfield rifle that you love, but where are you going to get ammo for it? You're not!!!
You might also want to consider any other family members who will possibly be firing the weapons. You could get a 30.06, which is a large caliber round and will take pretty much anything you hit with it that you are likely to see in the Canadian wilderness, but is the wife or kids or someone of small stature going to be able to hit with it? Are they going to be flinching, with closed eyes, every time they pull the trigger?

Also consider weight of the rifle. If this is a SHTF scenario you are gearing up for, and you might need to be mobile, you will probably be carrying a pack of some sort, and it might be a huge pack. Keep in mind how much weight you can physically carry. It not just the rifle's weight, but also the weight of the ammo and any magazines, cleaning kit, optics, etc. An M14/M1A in .308, another great, relatively flat shooting round, weighs 11˝ pounds. Compared to rifles in the 6 to 8 pound range, that's a lot of extra weight to lug around on a daily basis.

If you want to put an optic on the rifle, don't at first. Learn to use your iron sights well. With Murphy's Law, your optic might go belly up at the most inopportune time, and if you aren't well versed with shotting with iron sights your SOL. Shot placement is extremely important. even if you are carrying a small caliber, you can make it work better with accurate shot placement.

Try before you buy...Like someone above mentioned, join a club, buy some different calibers of ammo and try some rifles.

Some of my choices (you know what they say about opinions)of ETS arms would be an AR15/C7/C8(any reputable brand), AK47 (Arsenal brand makes some very inexpensive, top quality versions), Ruger 10/22(can carry lots of ammo for small game, and stinging larger bi-pedal varieties), and any major brand of 9mm pistols(easy ammo availability). Identical rifles for the whole family could be good or bad. Good for parts availability, to keep at least one working, but bad if the one caliber is not readily available when you need it. Also consider that a break down rifle is able to be placed in a pack, for concealed carry, when hiking through the woods, hidden from view of those you encounter (with a concealed pistol at ready on the hip).

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#125080 - 02/24/08 05:41 PM Re: Buying my first rifle...looking for advice [Re: ]
gunsmith Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 35
Loc: Co.'Douglas 80125
A lot of good recomendations here, +1 on rem. 870's, mossberg 500"s are also good. Rem 870 is available in left hand model, but at a price penalty.

Also mentioned was the M37 Ithaca, which is quite good, and was quite popular with "leftys", another bottom ejector to consider would be the Browning BPS.

Left hand models have always been limited, but I have hunted and shot with a good number of left handed men& wemon who used right hand guns with no trouble, Bolt action rifles included.

A .22 auto is also very usefull, and near the top of my "must have list". The Ruger 10-22 is one of the best, but you stated that take down capibility was important to you.
The only take down .22 auto that I would put in the same quality/ accuracy/dependability with the 10-22 would be the discontinued Browning. Another popular option would be the lever action Marlin 39-A

I know there are a lot of AR7, and Marlin Papoose fans , I just don't think these quite "stack up", but they are available and economical.

Good luck with your selection.

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Never been lost, But I've been "Powerfull confused"

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#125083 - 02/24/08 05:54 PM Re: Buying my first rifle...looking for advice [Re: andygold]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


That's some solid advice Andy...but...

and before I get to the but this is to be an all things rifle or shotgun. Be it hunting, survival, etc...at least until I start buying more of them...Lord help me

If I were to follow the said SHTF scenario as an example. The last thing I would expect to find 'out there' is military ammunition. Assault rifles are rare and illegal here unless you have special licenses or are military yourself. I'd wager there are more hunters carrying rifles than soldiers in this province at any given time. Also, in a SHTF Bug out, I don't want to draw attention to myself...the last thing I need is that kind of attention if I have to take off. This is the reason I'm considering something that can break down or at least have it's barrel easily removed so it can be fit into a pack.

Ammunition is also something that I'm considering carefully. .308 is by far the most popular hunting cartridge here...followed closely by 30-06. There's a shop 6 blocks from here that sells bulk boxes of .308 hardpoint target ammo by the hundreds and it's just sitting on the floor waiting to be purchased. Again if I turn to the SHTF situation (which I assure you is the lowest priority on my list of purchasing factors) I'd want something that is incredibly available. I'd say that the 4 most available here are .22LR, .308, .30-06, and 12ga...more or less in that order. Not to say that there aren't plenty of the other types but those are the most popular from what I can tell. The other consideration is cost. .308 and 30-06 aren't the cheapest around. 12ga shells are quite cheap and .22LR are so inexpensive I'm surprised they don't give them away.

There's also the cost of the firearm itself. I can get a Mossberg with both standard and rifled barrels, and a set of chokes delivered for under $400 and a .22LR for less than that (though not much less new).

Last but not least there's what I'd like to do with it. I definitely want to try big game hunting. I want to do some fly in fishing where you need something powerful for polar bear defense (by law) and I want to do some small game stuff too. Home defense isn't a big deal for me...I likely won't be storing them in the house anyhow.

Right now I've narrowed my options down to 3 choices (in no particular order). I have no doubt that there is a strong chance I'll own all three before too long but I have to start somewhere.

  • .22LR/.410 Over/Under like the AR-6, Savage 24, or Remington Baikal SPR94
  • .22LR takedown like the Papoose or US Survival Gun
  • 12ga shotgun combo with rifled barrel


So far the shotgun is the only single one that can do everything I want...plus has the advantage that I can use it to try skeet shooting...something else I'd like to dabble with.

The real trick now is finding the right one at the right price among those 3 options...there are so many options it's not going to be easy.

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#125094 - 02/24/08 07:19 PM Re: Buying my first rifle...looking for advice [Re: ]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
If available in your area, check what you can special order or get online from Wal-Mart. You might be suprised.

I know they have Remington, Savage, and Mossberg, at least.

Not sure I have seen it on this thread, so:

Consider sucking up politely to the best shooters you can find. Tell them you are a newbie and want to start off right.

Include in your questions finding out who fits their weapons. Rifle and shotgun fit to your body, posture, lead eye, etc. is important. Also include asking who they would trust to zero in their weapons if they couldn’t do it.

Be prepared to spend money on these two things: fit and zeroing. This may determine who you buy what from also, because you may find it cheapest to combine the purchase, fitting, and zeroing from one source.


Edited by dweste (02/24/08 08:01 PM)

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