Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 3 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#120608 - 01/17/08 11:23 PM Re: Aluminum Bat for Home Defense [Re: Taurus]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2621
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: Taurus
Originally Posted By: Hacksaw
Unfortunately in Canada anything becomes a weapon the second you swing it at somebody so it wouldn't matter if it were a bat or a kitchen knife or a lead pipe...all would be considered weapons home invasion or not.


So if anyone desides to break into our homes here in Canada we had better make it worth our while as we are going to jail anyway. Screw the bat, my Mossberg 935 and a few 3 1/2 inch Mag shells filled with #4 Buckshot will make the jailtime worth it. smirk



As a fellow Canuck, I respectfully submit that these conclusions are not entirely correct. True, anything used as a weapon is treated as such; but it's not illegal to use a weapon in a legitimate case of self-defence. You have the right to defend yourself if you reasonably apprehend death or serious bodily harm. But you may only use the minimum force necessary to stop the immediate threat. Sometimes minimum force leads to the death of the perp; and while that is homicide, it's not murder. If you clearly go too far, and become the aggressor after the immediate threat has ended, you may well face criminal prosecution. An example would be, say, pursuing and bashing in the skull of perp that is trying to get the heck out of your house. I think the police and Crown prosecutor give reasonably leeway in self-defence cases, but there are limits to how far you can go.




Top
#120613 - 01/17/08 11:46 PM Re: Aluminum Bat for Home Defense [Re: gear_freak]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
I'd rather have something I can thrust with and have some power behind it, due to the space needed for a swing.A tonfa would be ok, but probably difficult in a place where you can't do firearms, and it lacks range. Swords and spears should not be overlooked, but but I'm not sure how the judge would react to it.

I'd probably take a short staff made of something like oak or one of the epoxy-impregnated wood products- balanced so I can use it like a sword, including thrusts, if I can't swing, but long enough that the staff techniques still work. Or the sword stand-in I use for building wrist strength- 1.5" dia solid steel rod, about three and a half feet long. Rattan is for when you are playing with friends, steel is for when it is just you and that shadow that keeps stalking you. smile

In any case, it isn't going to be something that isn't technique intensive.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

Top
#120614 - 01/17/08 11:49 PM Re: Aluminum Bat for Home Defense [Re: dougwalkabout]
Hacksaw
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout
Originally Posted By: Taurus
Originally Posted By: Hacksaw
Unfortunately in Canada anything becomes a weapon the second you swing it at somebody so it wouldn't matter if it were a bat or a kitchen knife or a lead pipe...all would be considered weapons home invasion or not.


So if anyone desides to break into our homes here in Canada we had better make it worth our while as we are going to jail anyway. Screw the bat, my Mossberg 935 and a few 3 1/2 inch Mag shells filled with #4 Buckshot will make the jailtime worth it. smirk



As a fellow Canuck, I respectfully submit that these conclusions are not entirely correct. True, anything used as a weapon is treated as such; but it's not illegal to use a weapon in a legitimate case of self-defence. You have the right to defend yourself if you reasonably apprehend death or serious bodily harm. But you may only use the minimum force necessary to stop the immediate threat. Sometimes minimum force leads to the death of the perp; and while that is homicide, it's not murder. If you clearly go too far, and become the aggressor after the immediate threat has ended, you may well face criminal prosecution. An example would be, say, pursuing and bashing in the skull of perp that is trying to get the heck out of your house. I think the police and Crown prosecutor give reasonably leeway in self-defence cases, but there are limits to how far you can go.





Extremely valid point! It's true. Once you use more force than is needed to neutralize the situation, you are assaulting the person you're defending yourself from and can be charged as such.

The main difference between north and south of our border is that in the US once somebody has intruded your home, you the rules change...not so here unfortunately.

Top
#120615 - 01/17/08 11:58 PM Re: Aluminum Bat for Home Defense [Re: dougwalkabout]
Sherpadog
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout

As a fellow Canuck, I respectfully submit that these conclusions are not entirely correct. True, anything used as a weapon is treated as such; but it's not illegal to use a weapon in a legitimate case of self-defence. You have the right to defend yourself if you reasonably apprehend death or serious bodily harm. But you may only use the minimum force necessary to stop the immediate threat. Sometimes minimum force leads to the death of the perp; and while that is homicide, it's not murder. If you clearly go too far, and become the aggressor after the immediate threat has ended, you may well face criminal prosecution. An example would be, say, pursuing and bashing in the skull of perp that is trying to get the heck out of your house. I think the police and Crown prosecutor give reasonably leeway in self-defence cases, but there are limits to how far you can go.


I agree and the Criminal Code of Canada clearly spells this out.

A few years back there was a court case in Winnipeg IIRC where a homeowner pulled a rifle at a suspected burglar and shot him in the leg. The gist of the case was whether it was true self defense or excessive force as it was shown that the homeowner always kept a firearm close by which in it's self is in contravention of the storage of non-restricted firearms regulations.

I am not sure what the outcome of the court trial was, however it shows there is a difference between reasonable self defense and possible excessive force in this particular case.

Top
#120619 - 01/18/08 12:24 AM Re: Aluminum Bat for Home Defense [Re: ]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: Hacksaw
The main difference between north and south of our border is that in the US once somebody has intruded your home, you the rules change


Not so.

Here, if you shoot someone and he stays down, you can't walk up to him and put one behind his ear just to be sure. Well, you can, but it stands a good chance of being called "murder". If he's out of the fight, it's over.

And most places to require that if they choose to run away, let them.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

Top
#120635 - 01/18/08 01:36 AM Re: Aluminum Bat for Home Defense [Re: Survival1]
AROTC Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/06/04
Posts: 604
Loc: Manhattan
Originally Posted By: Survival1
A bat or knife could easily be taken away by someone with a little training and then used against you.


A good point. A swung bat is very easy to take away from somebody. I've seen it happen. I would opt for something I could jab with. Force is concentrated on a smaller area and you retain better control of your weapon. I think a 1" or 1 1/2" dowel or a closet rod would be a better option. You can also jab a lot faster then you can swing. Throw a dozen fast jabs to a person's face and belly. Check out the US Army combatives manual on the three foot stick


Edited by AROTC (01/18/08 01:36 AM)
_________________________
A gentleman should always be able to break his fast in the manner of a gentleman where so ever he may find himself.--Good Omens

Top
#120636 - 01/18/08 01:41 AM Re: Aluminum Bat for Home Defense [Re: NightHiker]
OldBaldGuy Offline
Geezer

Registered: 09/30/01
Posts: 5695
Loc: Former AFB in CA, recouping fr...
That is an intersting gizmo. In CA, probably enough to turn a simple flashlight into a felony to possess (12020 PC). It could ruin the bad guys day tho...
_________________________
OBG

Top
#120639 - 01/18/08 01:47 AM Re: Aluminum Bat for Home Defense [Re: ]
Taurus Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 423
Loc: Ontario
I know this is usually what turns into a hot topic for argument and I don’t want to fan the flames but…………In the service of my country I have had to put people in my sights and pull the trigger. You don’t think about what you are doing when you do either, you just do it. When you know your life is in danger you react and that’s it. We can talk for weeks about law and ethics and what you would like to think you would do in that kind of situation but in the end you will either freeze, or you will react. When you pull a trigger, swing a bat or thrust a sword you are deciding to use deadly force on another human being because all of these items have the potential to kill. This is a sensitive area for me because I have been in this situation on more than one occasion and whether it’s a terrorist pulling an AK-47 from under his clothes and pointing it at you or having a potential murderer in your house you will not have long to decide what to do. It is not something I EVER wants to do again but make no mistake, if anyone ever breaks into my home with the intent of harming my loved ones then they will die without ever having the chance to run. If they think that this is unfair then they shouldn’t BE IN MY HOUSE IN THE FIRST PLACE. I prey it never happens because I know what I will do. As long as my family is safe then I am fully prepared to deal with the consequences.

But that’s just my opinion

Top
#120642 - 01/18/08 02:18 AM Re: Aluminum Bat for Home Defense [Re: Taurus]
sodak Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 410
Originally Posted By: Taurus
It is not something I EVER wants to do again but make no mistake, if anyone ever breaks into my home with the intent of harming my loved ones then they will die without ever having the chance to run. If they think that this is unfair then they shouldn’t BE IN MY HOUSE IN THE FIRST PLACE. I prey it never happens because I know what I will do. As long as my family is safe then I am fully prepared to deal with the consequences.

But that’s just my opinion


Amen. By the way, you're welcome to stay in my house anytime!

As for the question, I think a nice wooden bat or cricket bat would be a significant deterrent. A good dog is wonderful also, I don't require a guard dog, just one with good hearing. Give me 10 seconds, that's all I ask... I know my house in the dark, my eyes are already night adapted, and with my 10 sec warning, I'm good to go.

Top
#120647 - 01/18/08 02:55 AM Re: Aluminum Bat for Home Defense [Re: Taurus]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 2621
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: Taurus
... if anyone ever breaks into my home with the intent of harming my loved ones then they will die without ever having the chance to run.


Given that scenario, I don't think any reasonable person would have a quarrel with what you've said. Such a response would IMO be justified and lawful.

If I may suggest it, though, there are other scenarios in which someone might be in the house illegally, and yet with no demonstrable intention of causing bodily harm. Some sort of graduated response would be needed; to shoot someone for stealing the TV would definitely be unlawful, and would lead to a world of legal trouble. Plus (for me anyway) it would be a tough thing to live with.

I'm not criticising in any way. I'm just trying to think out some appropriate strategies before the event. I imagine deterrent actions (suggested previously in the thread) would be the place to start.

Top
Page 3 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >



Moderator:  Alan_Romania, Blast, chaosmagnet, cliff 
February
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28
Who's Online
1 registered (Phaedrus), 243 Guests and 7 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Surv3, depha, Ahsan, Michelle, EthanJames
5237 Registered Users
Newest Posts
A good knife for bushcraft AND kitchen duty?
by Russ
Today at 03:54 AM
Calling 911 Effectively
by brandtb
02/15/18 04:47 AM
CRKT Ritter RSK Mk5 at back at Woot!
by hikermor
02/14/18 02:16 PM
Maxpedition Pygmy Falcon II for $55 at Woot.com!
by Phaedrus
02/12/18 06:33 AM
New fad: drinking raw water
by hikermor
02/11/18 09:17 PM
Radios, gas, and first responders
by Eugene
02/09/18 03:07 PM
Personal locator beacon
by Ratch
02/07/18 05:34 AM
Flooding and chemical spills
by Bingley
02/07/18 04:25 AM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.