Hello --<br><br>I just found your site and am very impressed. Camping and backpacking have been a part of my life since the late fifties (I am 52 now). In reading alot of the past posts I have not seen any information about cave fires. Does anyone know a rule-of-thumb about placement of fires to achieve the best draft? I am thinking mostly of the desert southwest in caves which do not have previous fire scars (on the ground and/or ceiling). I do not advocate scarring caves with new fires except in a survival situation. Since caves "breathe," improper placement might draw the smoke into the cave, thus running you out. Maybe Chris K, being an archaeologist, would know about any Native American methods.<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>Arinite7

Welcome and thankyou for your concern for the caves! A fashionable photographer recently scorched one of the Arches in Arches Park Utah. He didn't like the "natural lighting!" I can't really say anything definitive about Indian procedures. If a cave was utilized, it was for concealment during times of hostilities, and the fire would be deep in the cave and likely as not a small "squaw fire" to avoid detection. In a survival situation you will want the fire VERY visable, so a placement near the mouth is adviseable. This likely will produce a decent draft, much like a "Rumford" fireplace. Caves have their own dangers( not cave bears). They are prime areas for a lovely illness called Valley Fever( coccidiodomycosis), from a spore found in western soils. Anyone who comes down with a severe respiratory illness out of season, or after exposure to dust or winds should be tested! Many doctors still miss this ailment. The periodic outbreak of hantavirus is also a concern. I avoid caves out of consideration for their spiritual use. But if I need to hole up, a bit of corn meal or tobacco may get the local dieties on my side( while trickster coyote laughs at me for being so stupid.) Any more thoughts Hikerdon?

For one thing, thre are basically two different types of caves, true caves with winding passages (almost always confined to limestone) and rockshelters, basically shallow overhangs, often in sandstone.<br><br>The deep passages in these caves are not suitable for fires, although the mouth of such a cave might have a rockshelter. A fire in a deep passage would do considerable damage to the cave resources, plus there is not likely to be much fuel.<br><br>Rockshelters are a different thing. They make absolutely wonderful campsites and shelters. With a fire, they can be absolutely luxurious - far better than any tent. This is one reason that many of them, especially the ones best suited for shelter, were used in the past and are now archeological sites.<br><br>The result is that you will often see existing smoke blackening on the ceiling. Fire scarring on the walls of the rockshelter is less common and is often the result of a prehistoric oonflagration.<br><br>To prevent more damage, keep your fire small and away from the wall, or better yet, use a stove. This also allows you to slip into the space between the fire and the wall where you will be kept warm by both the direct heat of the fire and the reflectance off the shelter wall. <br><br>Avoid damage to the archeology which is often present. Build your fire in clean soil/sand and don't disturb the contents of the shelter. Your fire will burn fine and you will be shielded from rain and snow in the typical desert rockshelter. <br><br>One of the best camps I ever made was in a huge rockshelter in the Four Corners, just north of Navajo Mountain. We camped to the side of archeological material on sterile ground, awakening in the morning to rain and a rising creek which barred further travel. We made pancakes and retired to our sleeping bags, where I finished my Tony Hillerman novel - talk about an appropriate setting! About noon, the creek dropped, and we proceeded on our way. We were totally comfortable, completely dry, the entire time.

Thanks to both Chris and Hikerdon for responding to my question. Both provided much information as well as fuel for more investigation. I ran a Google search on Coccidioides immitis finding many of the symptoms to be similar to an upper-respiratory disease I encountered in the early summer of 1989. Nine of 14 participants came down with a flu-like condition after returning from an expedition studying wild cave systems in Mexico. The symptoms: cough, chest pain, shortness of breath, fever, night sweats, and fatigue were distributed in varying qualities throughout the non-Southwest people (3 in PA, 2 in FL, 1 in NC, 1 in IN, 1 in IL, and me in MO). Three days after returning from Mexico I received a call from the wife of the Illinois caver saying he was in intensive care with an unknown condition. She said two of the three Pennsylvanians and both Floridians were in bed with flu-like symptoms. She had not called the others yet. I was not feeling very well but was not bed-ridden. In two days I was at my doctor’s office complaining of the above symptoms and getting numerous blood tests and chest x-rays. When tests came back eliminating Histoplasmosis capsultum (from breathing dried bat guano) as well as other fungal entities, such as I suspect C. immitis, my doctor was in a quandary as well as the other’s doctors (who were now in touch with each other). I was now in bed and all the other eight above mentioned were also. The Center for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta monitored all with no success in naming the offending culprit. To cut to the chase, I was out of work for 33 days and lost 14 pounds. Others confirmed similar lost workage and poundage. The CDC eventually said the cause was an upper respiratory viral infection to raw sewage (human and other) pumped onto the hills outside Mexico City, which dried and became airborne. Medication consisted of anti-biotics, bed rest and lots of fluids. The un-named disease seemed to run its course in four to five weeks for all involved, but I was weak and very lethargic for two more months. Surprisingly the 3 Texans and 2 Arizonians did not show any signs of the disease. All involved were in above average health and all were avid outdoors persons. As instructed we all wore bandanas over our faces when at known Histoplasmosis sites but this came from outside – in what seemed to be just dusty, high-desert conditions in Mexico. With public awareness of airborne diseases in post 9/11 America what can or should we do to help prevent attacks from natural pathogens?<br><br>To Hikerdon: I enjoyed your description of rock shelter camping. That, I think, was what I wanted to know about the fire – did the Anasazi or other cliff dwellers just build a fire or did outside wind currents and other elements (not caves) have to do with the placement? <br><br>What does “prehistoric oonflagration” mean as in: Fire scarring on the walls of the rockshelter is less common and is often the result of a prehistoric oonflagration.<br><br><br>Thanks and sorry about the long post.<br><br>Arinite7<br><br><br><br>

I think Don typoed Conflagraton. Or, as my meteorology proff said " a really, really big fire" To the remedial english freshmen. As to airborn pathogens, we defer to our forum colleage Beachdoc.I spent an equally memorable night in a rock shelter. We were doing preliminary excavations At Wood Ranch, next to the present Reagan Library. I made fry bread in a dutch oven. A volunteer said it was inappropriate ( as our native rep. monitor wolved down her portion) and walked off to get a native vegetarian salad. She returned with a lovely harvest of poison sumac.

I was using "conflagration" to refer to some sort of out of control fire in which a structure within the rock shelter burned down and scorched the rock. Usually normal cooking or heating fires are built within structures in the shelter or else at a suitable distance from the shelter wall so that what you see as evidence of fire is smoke blackening, rather than reddening by direct fire. Later users sometimes build closer to the shelter wall, but that is usually obvious on inspection.<br><br>Where in Mexico were you caving? I have caved in Oaxaca, fortunately without the problems you describe. I think something a bit more protective than a bandana would be a little more suitable against airborne pathogens.

Please excuse me for being obtuse of mind, but from my studies in the biological and geological sciences, the prefix “oo” has several specialized words (i.e. -- oology, oocyte, oogenesis, oophoritis, ootheca, oozoid in biology and oolite and oolithic in geology) all dealing with eggs or being egg-like . I was not sure if “oonflagration” was a specialized term in archaeology.<br><br>Thanks and no more cave fire questions,<br><br>Arinite7<br><br>

Being obtuse can be fun. The easiest way to an advanced degree is to become "the expert" in a totally obscure specialty. Nobody else knows ( or wants to) what you are talking about. I used to bluff my fellow undergraduates by bringing an endless supply of BUREAU OF AMERICAN ETHNOLOGY editions stuffed with notes to class. Considering they had dogeared copies of Castaneda ,my proffs were impressed ( until the term paper lol)