I spent a good part of the day attempting to start a fire with a magnesium block fire starter. No luck. The magnesium doesn't ignite very easily when you shower sparks at the magnesium shavings. It doesn't work too well at all, unless you drop those little shavings on top of a napkin. When you do that, the napkin is going to burn very nicely, but it's going stay lit for only a brief duration of time. It only takes about two or five strikes of the flint and steel to get those little shavings to ignite once they've been placed on top of a napkin. You run the blade of your knife along the carbon steel strker a few times, and voila ! that's all it takes to get the napkin to ignite.

The napkin fire, of course, is always going to "peter out" very quickly and long before it ever catches on to the piled-on wood.

Cotton mixed with petroleum jelly: now that's a completely different story. You get a very nice consistent flame whenever you mix cotton and petroleum jelly, and the flame is always long-lasting enough to ignite the piled-on wood.

I tried making a char cloth by placing the section of a cotton shirt inside an "altoids" can and then cooking it over the campfire. It came out very brittle, and then when I showered a whole bunch of sparks at the char cloth, the only thing that happened was that it caused the char cloth to catch on fire !

I really don't believe that that's the idea behind having a char cloth !

Isn't the char cloth supposed to hold a spark?

Isn't the char cloth supposed to be reusable ?

I really believe that we need to learn how to make fires by using the flint and steel method, and that it's a vital survival skill.

Let's converse about it, shall we ?

LW.

FLINT:STEEL:FUEL

The 50¢ fire - "SO EASY A CAVEMAN CAN DO IT"

Many moons ago, a CAVEMAN made a round steel wheel fitted against a rod of flint. When spun, the sparks lit a flume of vented butane. BIC the CAVEMAN has never been bested.

His two brothers (A PAR OF NOIDS), carry two of them. They have never been without fire. They carry no fuel, for they have never been where there was none.

Hi LW,

I think you may be confusing the method of catching relatively cold sparks produced by real flint stone(a form of mineral quartz) and carbon steel on char-cloth to produce an ember; with the sparks produced by an artificial flint rod.

The artificial flint rod (also called ferrocium or firesteel) attached to a magnesium block is a man-made product, it is a mixture of many metals and elements including, iron, zinc, magnesium, cerium, lanthanum, neodymiun,... When the rod is scraped by something sharp (does not have to be steel) friction ignites the scrapings; I think they burn at around 3000*, that is why the charcloth burned, instead of just developing an ember.

I have also been experimenting with traditional fire making methods but where I live I cannot find any flint, the only thing I have locally is Quartz which also produces a spark but it is smaller and colder. Before carbon steel was discovered the flint stone was struck with iron pyrite, this made a very cold spark. "Otiz the Iceman" had flint, iron pyrite and tinder fungus in his survival belt when died in the Alps almost 5000 years ago.

Hope this help,

Mike

Swamp,
Some nice comments; I think your idea that the mag block is way hotter is correct.
I too have been playing with "natural spark" fires. Everytime I go off in the woods I bring the char cloth and try different rock combos to try and get an ember on the char cloth. Mostly you need hard rocks. Here in the Bay area there is not a lot to work with but I keep searching.
Bill

LW,
Ideally the char cloth would get a glowing area that would quickly grow. Once it catches a spark it glows hot and spreads fast but if you only use a small piece to ignite a tinder bundle a 4 inch X 4 inch piece could last for dozens of fires. But char cloth is not reusable in the sense that you can reuse the area that actually catches the spark. The hot area burns up fsat so you need to use a little piece of the cloth and get it into a tinder bundle, then start blowing.
Bill

Sounds like ignited magnesium shavings and char cloth equals FIRE!

Pyros unite! We are not sociopaths were are the keepers of the lost fire knowledge. Go burn something today!

The magnesium is intented to be a "first tinder", rather than a complete tinder. It burns hot and FAST. You need to have a something more substantial in the way of tinder-like material, but unlike true tinder, tinder-like can be less than perfectly dry. Not wet, just less than perfect.

As for how you were scraping, let me guess- stainless steel blade, using the edge? Carbon steel works better, and if the spine of your blade is square with a decent corner, it will work much, much better. Or the back of a hacksaw blade.

If you use it right and take your time, mag blocks work much, much better.

< LW,
< Ideally the char cloth would get a glowing area that would quickly grow. Once it catches a spark it glows hot and spreads fast but if you only use a small piece to ignite a tinder bundle a 4 inch X 4 inch piece could last for dozens of fires. But char cloth is not reusable in the sense that you can reuse the area that actually catches the spark. The hot area burns up fast so you need to use a little piece of the cloth and get it into a tinder bundle, then start blowing. >

The US Army survival manual says that you're supposed to use a char cloth if the only thing you have is a spark-producing device, but the char cloth itself is a royal pain in a** to make, so maybe it just isn't realistic to depend on flint and steel if you're going to be out in the boonies for an extended period of time. I would prefer to use what nature provides, but the thought of carrying something like a "Blast Match" or a "Strike Force" is very appealing to a beginner such as myself because they really don't weigh very much at all.

I reckon that it's got to be a monumental waste of time to carry a spark-producing device if all you've got is the tinder that nature provides, because without a char cloth it's going to take a near miracle to locate a sufficient quantity of natural tinder that's going to catch fire and burn with nothing but a shower of sparks from a spark-producing device. I just can't see carrying a big jar of vaseline and a big wad of cotton balls with me everywhere I go, so I'm thinking that maybe I'd be better off learning how to use the primitive bow and drill method.

It sounds like I won't be able to rely on the char cloth too much in a primitive survival situation.

Fire making is absolutely critical if you're going to be out in the boonies for an extended period of time. There is so much you can do with a fire, like boiling and purifying water and making primitive implements, but without that ability you are simply f**ked.

< Bill

< Sounds like ignited magnesium shavings and char cloth equals FIRE!

I didn't shave any magnesium onto the char cloth; all I did was to shower a bunch of sparks at it.

< Pyros unite! We are not sociopaths were are the keepers of the lost fire knowledge. Go burn something today!

LOL !

LW.

I disagree. With magnesium block you can light fire even without very thin tinder (like lint or cotton balls). Just be patient, and spend more than 5 minutes shaving the magnesium in a very thin powder. The fine hacksaw blade is better than a knife in producing such a powder (and in producing the sparks too). Just use it as a mini saw. The magnesium pile must be something like 1/2 of teaspoon in volume at least (the more the better for an average beginner). Shave on a flat or better concave piece of more or less dry wood (paper, cloth). Spark right on the pile. Sooner or later magnesium will ignite. It will burn hot at least for a minute. Just add more fuel as usual, starting from a match thick kindling. Also watch the base piece of wood. It's usually develops a nice coal right under the pile.

Try this link:

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=3673

From my experience with a flintlock rifle I made from a kit a few years back, a natural flint striking a hardened steel can produce a huge shower of sparks, which are at least hot enough to be painful. Very painful.

Frank2135

Quote 'As for how you were scraping, let me guess- stainless steel blade, using the edge? Carbon steel works better'

This is not true and I think a real urban myth amongst survilist. The Firesteel rod whether on a Mg block or by its self is a alloy that when scrapped with any of a myrid of substances that are strong then the firesteel material will cause sparks to form. I have used a surgical blade with great success to make a fine shower of sparks, the blade is 440 stainless steel, as well as the blad off a swiss army knife. Both thes work better then the back of my Mora knife or other carbon steel knife.
Now if you are using true flint and steel, carbon steel, to start a fire then you are actually froming sparks by the action of the flint scrapping off splinters of the carbon steel. The one time I did this it worked but it took time.

I think if we look at the history of fire meaking we would see mans quest for easier and easier ways of making fire. The indians and mountain man carried the best method they had for there time, and only fell back to more primative methods when they did not have the more modern marvials.

cheers

Quote "The US Army survival manual says that you're supposed to use a char cloth if the only thing you have is a spark-producing device, but the char cloth itself is a royal pain in a** to make, so maybe it just isn't realistic to depend on flint and steel if you're going to be out in the boonies for an extended period of time. I would prefer to use what nature provides, but the thought of carrying something like a "Blast Match" or a "Strike Force" is very appealing to a beginner such as myself because they really don't weigh very much at all. "

Again starting a fire is like caving you alway carry three sources. Lighter, matches, and spark producer. Then from there you use what nature provides.

cheers

Urban myth, hmm? Sorry atoz, I was given my first Doans over 20 years ago, and I've been using them ever since. I get about half, two-thirds as many sparks with a stainless scraper as I do carbon- same angle, same pressure, same scraper thickness (near enough- not enough for the eye to see).

There was also an evaluation of scraper materials done by a member about a year ago or so, he found a super high carbon tool steel did the very best. High chromium, low carbon steel did the worst.

Stainless sucks on ferro rods. Beginning and end of story.

I have been playing with mag blocks off and on for about 30 years, and have never tried to shave any off. I usually use a small piece of a hacksaw blade (either the teeth side, or the back side), or a knife blade, held at a right angle to the block, I get a pile of little bitty flakes, not thin slices. Works for me...

Hi Frank2135,

Thanks for the link to Dixie Gun Works, I did not know "nodules of flint" were even available for sale. The difficulty is that for a private citizen to import anything firearm related into Canada is a big hassle. I think I will just have to buy a small piece of flint at a gun shop in Ontario, so I can experiment with it. I have seen flint struck in survival movies and it produced a lot more and hotter sparks than my local quartz. The native people of Southern Ontario used chert (another type of mineral quartz) but I have had very poor results producing a spark with it, I will have to work with it some more.

I think the confusion comes from people and marketing companies refering to ferrocium rod as "flint" when actually it is not, it is a man-made, artifical product. It is like calling the black middle of a pencil "lead" when really it is made of graphite/clay.

The only time I have used char cloth is to catch the "colder" sparks produced by traditional flint (quartz in my case) and carbon steel.

In the past I would guess that people would make a fire by the friction method (bow-drill) or catch a spark on natural tinder like Tinder Fungus. They would then make a batch of char cloth and after that use the char cloth to catch the sparks from natural flint stone and carbon steel. Remember they also needed high heat(fire) to produce the carbon steel? In Neolithic times they did not have linen to make char cloth or carbon steel, they used flint, iron pyrite and tinder fungus (amadou) to produce fire.

The thing I like best about artifical flint (call it, ferrocium rod, firesteel or magnesium block) is that if it gets wet you just wipe it off and strike sparks with it immediately. If I remember correctly it takes about 200 flicks of a Bic to dry out the striker wheel of a lighter? Some waterproof matches are effective, some not so good after getting wet. Both lighters and matches are also effected by high winds, usually sparks are not and the more wind on a coal in a tinder bundle the quicker it ignites.

I have frequently used an artifical flint rod (usually a Light-My-Fire Scout model) to ignite natural tinder. Mostly I use shredded white birch bark, but sometines I use cedar bark or tinder fungus. I usually scrape the artifical flint rod with whatever sharp edge I have on me, often one of the non-cutting blades of my multi-tool, as using the main blade is hard on the edge. Any Ray Mears or Michel Blomgren video shows them lighting natural tinder with an articical flint rod.

I just tested scraping a Primus Firesteel with both a 1095 carbon steel blade (Ontario Brand "Old Hickory" kitchen knife) and a low carbon/high chromium stainless steel blade (Rapala Filleting Knife). I could not detect any difference in the amount of hot sparks produced. What does produce a significantly greater amount of sparks it to hold the sharp edge firmly and scrape the artifical flint rod under it. This not only produces more sparks, it is easier to direct them onto the tinder and you do not scatter you tinder with the follow-thru of your scraper hand.

Interesting topic L.W. glad you brought it up.

Mike

Hi, Mike,

You're very welcome. And the choice of tinder is critical. I recently tried to ignite some nice, dry grass (fine tips, not the woody stems) with my ferro rod, and it just would not support an ember. Then I shredded some cedar bark and presto! we had fire. IMO, if you're going to carry a sparking device, take the time to roll some PJ-impregnated cotton balls into little foil packets (technique discussed in this forum previously) and take them along, too. They weigh nothing and are darn near fool-proof as tinder.

Frank2135, whose neighbors wonder why it takes him so long to get his charcoal grill started

The problem with carbon steel is that it's famous for rusting out. Stainless doesn't produce sparks quite as easily, but it has better edge retention than carbon steel, and you don't have to worry about it rusting out on you. I have a bowie knife, the knife is made of AUS 8A stainless steel. If I had to choose between that bowie knife and a Camillus K Bar which is made of high carbon steel, I would choose the bowie knife "hands down" even though it doesn't produce sparks quite as well.

I wonder if anything can be done to high carbon steel to keep it from rusting out, short of keeping it well-oiled. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to keep a bottle of oil in your backpack where it's going to leak all over the place, but if I knew of a chemical treatment that would keep it from rusting out, then I would seriously consider going with carbon steel.

LW.

The black oxide coating on the K Bar and on the Ontario military knives works pretty well. However, IMO the best way to keep a carbon steel knife blade from rusting is to use it frequently, giving it a wipe with a dry cloth (usually my pant leg) before putting it back in its sheath.

Frank2135

You must be in a coastal region then. Or I have to ask what are you doing?

I say that becuase except for kitchen knives, my SAKs and my mutlitools, all of mine are carbon steel. The only time I've seen rust problems was when one was stored (forgotten) for about 20 years in a leather sheath. So long as they are properly maintained, carbon steel out performs in everything other than a high salt environment. And I've never seen one "rust out", if you mean it is no longer functional, unless it was just abandoned and completely neglected.

Carbon steel is harder and therefore has slightly better edge retention than stainless.

Harder steel = more and hotter sparks.

"...the best way to keep a carbon steel knife blade from rusting is to use it frequently, giving it a wipe with a dry cloth (usually my pant leg) before putting it back in its sheath..."

Me too. I have been using knives for more years than I care to count, and own many more carbon blades than stainless. Some have a nice "patina," but I have never had a real rusting problem, even with a kitchen paring knife that sometimes gets left laying on the counter overnight wet (shame on my wife). If a thin coating of rust does appear, it wipes away easily, back down to the patina...

You would do better to treat the magnesium scraping as a booster for your tinder ball. Rather than as a initial source of fuel. I know what the packaging on the DOAN and Cohglan magnesium blocks tell you to scrape it into a hollow etc but in practice it does not work. At least not well.

In terms of using char cloth: What is wrong having it burst into flames if ignited with a ferro rod? That is after all what you are trying to achieve when you strike a spark into it with a carbon steel striker and a flint and insert it into your tinder ball. All you are doing is saving yourself a lot of huffing and puffing. Note* Char cloth is worth having in you kit because it takes a spark from quite "cool" sparks. Like those struck from a carbon steel blade with a flint. The trick in it's manufacure is to avoid heating it too much to quickly. There are a couple of good short video's on YouTube. Use the search words BUSHCRAFT & CHAR CLOTH.

When stainless steels first came on to the market ( as 440A & 440C etc) they were relatively crude in terms of their metallurgy. Brittle, edge retention was very poor etc. Where as carbon steel has been around since the dawn of time. So it's a well understood metal. However, stainless steels have taken a quantum leap since then. Metals like 154CM & VG10 will give sparks from a ferro rod that compare very well with high carbon. To illustrate that point: The Swedish Air Force selected VG10 for the F1 survival knife. That's a stainless steel. The one thing that I have found to be critical is the shoulder of the spine on the blade. If it's rounded off as many knife producers do for a comfortable fit and for aesthetic reasons you are going to have difficulties in getting a decent spark. That is because the spine is riding over the rod rather than cutting in. Knives like the F1 are manufactured with a sharp spine for that exact reason. it's a mistake to assume that all carbon blades will automatically perform better than a stainless one. The ratio's of carbon to iron and the amount of oxygen applied to the smelting process, the forging of the blade and how it's quenched will also make a dramatic difference.

Well I got frustreate one day using a ferro rod to do a fire and did it with one of those small razor knifes and got as much if not more sparks then with a carbon blade. Ferro rods work by scrapping off the alloy of the ferro material not by scrapping off the steel of a high carbon steel blade when using flint. I know the teeth of a hacksaw blade works better then the back of a hacksaw blade, it is harder, for making lots of sparks. So it is most likely what ever is harder, rockwell number, probable will work the best.

are you using the edge of the knife or the back of the knife. If you use the edge then whatever has the greatest hardness will work best.
cheers

I have seen on some carbon steel knive, just my opnion, that they will dull if left for a time period. This may be due to oxidation to the cutting edge. I know if you using the knife a lot your probable keeping it sharp constantly. But if left to sit for a time, not nessacarily year, the blade will seem duller then when you last used it. Just an observation and I guess a question.
cheers

Hardness is great, but ya gotta have sharp too, or no sparks...

I agree one hundred precent. It is the ability to scrap off the alloy that does it.
cheers

That may be due to Ion exchange between the edge & the scabbard. That is the reason why Indian Tulwar & Japanese Katana et al blades have a rigid scabbard that the blade does not touch. It's one of the more esoteric quirks of metallurgy.

A teacher once told me a trick used with black powder rifles: wipe the oil off the crease of your nose (the outside, where the nostril meets your cheek). While he was talking about moistening the patch for the powder and ball, it might work well. After all, lots of guys make plenty of oils (NOT Sweat!!).

Another thought would be an to wipe an oily plant leaf on it. Not sure I can think of any, but just brain-storming here.

I don't know much about the magnesium fire starters (I have one but have never used it). But I do have some experience with char cloth.

Char cloth is a luxury item that you can create once you have fire. It is not designed to catch and hold a spark from your flint & steel or other primitive fire starting method, but it is instead meant to be hit by the spark and become a much larger ember. It is only meant to be used once. That is the drawback of it. On the up side, though, it is very good at catching a spark and then turning itself into a much larger ember.

For my char cloth I use 100% cotton 50-caliber cleaning patches. While they do shrink a little when I turn them into char cloth, one patch is enough for me to get a fire going. But, it all depends on the material you are using for your tinder bundle! The tinder bundle is very crucial. It doesn't matter how good of a spark you get or how good of an ember you get, if your tinder bundle is too damp or not fine enough or a bunch of other things you won't get it lit. I suggest that you do some google searches for "tinder bundle" and see if you can find information on good materials for the area in which you live.

As for me, I try to use a combination of cedar and birch bark. And, as others have mentioned, tinder fungus is a GREAT material, especially if combinded with other tinder materials in your tinder bundle. A friend of mine likes to make a "taco" out of a large piece of birch bark which he then fills with shreded, dried birch bark, tinder fungus, very fine, very dry wood shavings and some "sawdust" that he createds by scraping his knife blade across the wood he is getting his shavings from. Your tinder bundle should look like a bird's nest with the easiest lit materials in the middle, which is where the ember is placed. You will have to experiment and find the best way to place your ember or char cloth into the bundle so that it will easily ignite the material. When I use char cloth I reserve a bit of the finest tinder material, place the char cloth in the middle of the nest, and then put the reserved tinder material on it. As for my friend's tinder taco, the material is still in a nest shape, though oval, and the outer layer of birch bark (the taco shell) just makes it easy to hold.

As I said, you have to just find the best materials in your area and practice. For this, char cloth is great because you can cheat. To get used to using char cloth I would prepare a tinder bundle and then light the middle with a match and get it burning. This was just done for practice and was usually done on my back porch or while out camping. I was already good at getting a spark through various methods, but I felt this was just the easiest way to get used to using char cloth. Once I got down the proper tinder, then it was much easier (and a LOT less frustrating) to get a spark and ember using flint and steel and a char cloth and then ignite my tinder bundle.

Good luck and don't get discouraged!


Take care and have a great day....



ciao,
john.


PS I've found the easiest way to make char cloth is to simply place your material loosely into a tin can, cover tightly with some heavy duty tin foil, and then poke a hole in the tin foil with a push pin. Then, place on the coals of your fire, bank some coals around it, and then let is sit for 6-8 minutes. That's it.

PPS You should check out fire pistons! They are really cool, fun, and by far the easiest way to get an ember.

John,

Great first post! Welcome to the fire.

-Blast

Welcome Newguy, and thanks for that info...

I like the other trick my father told me you could do to clearn the barrel ot is to pi$$ down the barrel while the barrel was still hot.

Use to use the same nose oil trick to prevent metal ferrals on a fishing rod/pole from sticking together.
cheers

"...to pi$$ down the barrel..."

So many things come to mind, I'm afraid to even go there!



I too used the nose oil on my fishing poles. Works like a champ...

PJ cottonballs are just modern day char cloth.

It is amusing that the old flint, real cryptocrystalin quartz, and steel, usually made from an old file grade steel, is thought to have any superiority to modern methods. The flint and steel method is only good a technique if you are a mountain man period enactor. Or if your lost in the woods with no better method to start a fire, but it seems to require char cloth to start a fire in all instances I have seen. Not sure how hard it is to do without char cloth.
cheers

I use lint from the clothes drier filter to catch the spark. I keep a zip lock bag in my BOB with the mag block, lint, mini magnifying glass, and of course a couple of Bics just in case.

Hint: use a file to square off and sharpen the edge of your Mora blade. I purchased a Mora just last week and was shown this technique. With the factory edge, the sparks were merely OK. With the sharpened edge, the sparks were plentiful and larger. Hint came courteous of Mors Kochanski.

Actually, in my opinion, the level of ease depends on the materials in your tinder bundle. With the right material using flint & steel (or a fire bow, or a fire saw, or a fire piston) without char cloth can be very easy. With the same materials, char cloth just makes it easier. So, one can be easy, and the other is simply easier than something that is already easy. Of course, without the right materials in your tinder bundle using a char cloth can also be next to impossible. If you are out in the wild and don't have access to char cloth, your best bet is tinder fungus, which usually found on birch trees.

As for the uses of flint & steel, I'd agree with your statement. Odds are that you will never need it in a survival situation and it is often, when compared to modern techniques, very inefficient. But, it is knowledge that could come in handy. And, I personally think it is a ton of fun to try and master these old techniques.


Take care and have a great day....



ciao,
john.

I would think everything else was just in case the BIC did not work not the other way around.
cheers

My bic is for emergencies when I need fire quick or when I need to only use one hand for some reason. I normaly use my flint normaly.