In a resent thread about an article in Outside Magazine where a guy named Thayer attemped to survive on a tropical isle and in a rescent thread an ETS member had commneted that the Thayer had did not use all his options for starting a fire.
The Thayer had taken a survival course and had started a fire with a fire bow using softwoods. But in the article Thayer was unable to make a fire because the only wood he had was hardwood.
My questions are as follows:
1) would the fire plow method been more approperate with hardwoods thus the method favored by S. Pacific Islanders?
2) what were Thayer other options then trying to start a by fiction methods.

Um... fRiction methods...

Unless he's lying about fire starting

Non-Friction... did he have glasses, water bottles, etC? Could have used the sun.

If he was on a tropical island, there was probably bamboo. So, even tho this is a friction method, he could have tried this ...

Ray Mears, in either "Extreme Survival" or "World of Survival" covered starting a fire with Bamboo and Friction. He did it in reverse of the way the link illustrates, with the sharp edge bamboo being held and the piece with the slot lying on a leaf with the tinder underneath.

On another show he started a fire with a piece of rope and bamboo. He stood on the bamboo, ran the rope from one hand down around the bamboo into a slot and up to his other hand. By sawing back and forth the friction made a coal.

Interesting stuff.

I'd like to see what methods the person was familiar with. It doesn't seem like he did too much research before the trip.

Then again, maybe there was no bamboo... Or another way to start the fire... I need to read before making any snap judgements on the guy.

Nothing sends up warning flags faster than " I've been to a survival school." A century ago Ishi, the 'last Wild Indian of California' was found outside a slaughterhouse corral in Oroville. His tribal band, and most of the greatest concentration of distinct cultures in the Western Hemisphere had been virtually exterminated. In Ishi's case, some prospectors had come upon the camp and took their tool kits for souveniers. Unable to readily make fire, cold and hungry, they all perished save 4 men who were hunted down by paid hunters removing 'vermin.' And finally only Ishi remained. These were native people who knew their territory with the same intimacy you and I our bedrooms. Yes we can talk of the knife being our most important tool, invest hundreds of dollars in the latest minimalist blade with attached steel match and attend schools, good and bad with each instructor promoting some Excaliber, assigning animal guides or whatever. And we can go forth with a philosophy of minimalism, primitivism, gearism and Mother Nature can still lock thumb and forfinger and go 'FLICK' one footstep off the concrete. This guy failed, not because of hardwood but hardheads.

Ray is simply very good with his hands. Some of the shows are 'woodworking with Ray' in reality. He's making canoes, skis, furniture....

In one show he had to teach a fellow who was into survival so much he spent months in the woods alone and still had never started a fire with friction alone. Ray also mention that the survival books teach the 'bow' method but he's never seen a tribe use it.
The reality is I think that it's very difficult to start a fire by friction alone.

Unless you don't want to. Then it's disturbingly easy.


Frank2135 (sometimes frustrated home hobbyist)

Becoming proficient in fire by friction, like most things, is a matter of practice. Once you get the hang of it, it becomes second nature. However, it's not only the understanding of how the process works mechanically, but knowing the best materials to use for the area you're in and so on. It's a chain of knowledge somewhat like the idea that one needs to know basic math to understand trigonometry.

I've become fairly proficient at using the bow drill, but I still have quite a way to go in learning the best woods to use in any given area. I could rattle off a memorized list, but the difference between knowing that list and recognizing the plants themselves is huge, especially in winter when you're most likely really going to need a fire to survive. My chain of knowledge become kinked when it comes to materials.

Above all that, depending on any number of factors such as the season, the tools I would need to make a fire kit may not be available.

Granted, I could always carry a bow drill kit with me, but at that point it's easier to carry matches, a lighter, or a fire steel. Still, it's good to have the knowledge as a backup and I practice often. I'll get back to the idea of carrying "modern" tools with you in a moment.

As Ray Mears mentioned, you can travel all around the world and find a ton of tribes that use the hand drill method before you'll run across one using the bow drill. The hand drill simpler in many ways, even though I must admit that I've never been able to get a coal using this method. I say it's simpler because you need one less skill to accomplish it versus using the bow drill, specifically the skill not needed is the making of cordage. The chain of knowledge comes into play here once more.

On a side note, the tools that you'd take with you when you are proficient in the hand drill method are smaller, lighter, and less cumbersome.

Now as Chris K mentioned, there's the case of Ishi. He had the pressure of his tribe being robbed, broken up,and hunted down going against him. Survival in such a situation is going to be tough, no doubt about it. However, a case might be able to be made, if the story related to me is true, that his tribe's knowledge and skills may not have been what they once were. When Ishi showed archeologists his superb flint knapping skills he used a stick with an iron nail driven into it as a pressure flaker. The reason I bring this up is that the iron nail represents a broken link in the chain of knowledge in some ways. Instead of having to hunt a deer for antler (or finding antlers from a dead deer in the wild) to use in the pressure flaker, he only had to get a nail, which he didn't make himself. He used a modern tool.

Don't get me wrong, Ishi was certainly amazing by the accounts I've read and I'm not trying to attack him as a person who may not have been skilled enough to survive on his own...

Just to blow my point out of the water, It could be argued that just because Ishi was an excellent flint knapper, it doesn't mean that his other primitive skills were up to snuff. He could make arrow heads, but it doesn't mean he was an excellent hunter and unparalleled fire maker. Granted, he may have been good at both, I don't know, but others in his tribe may have been responsible for different skills. Specialization has its detriments because focus on one skill may mean that a person is less versed in other areas.

To reiterate another point, when Ishi was found, he was distraught by the many losses he had suffered, was cold and hungry, and had burnt off his hair in mourning. His mental state, it could be argued, was having an adverse effect on his ability to survive as well.

I know I've mentioned this here before, but it wasn't until I saw the movie castaway that I started EDCing the BSA Hotspark.

I'm starting to think that - at least in the midwestern US, where there a usually plenty of trees with hanging deadwood around - the ability to start a fire, build a shelter, acquire water, and signal for help are critical - - - and all quite doable without a knife. Not that I'll give up my beloved Rittergrips :-)

Ken

Don't get me wrong, I carry a MagFire with me all the time, and I am rarely without a lighter to boot. The only reason I mentioned Ishi using something modern is that he and his tribe may have been using some modern items for so long that they may have forgotten how to do things the old way. So, when his things were stolen there may have been gaps that he didn't know how to fill with the knowledge he had.

To put it another way, if someone stole my matches, I'd use my knowledge of friction fire making to fall back on. If a person who didn't know how to use friction to start a fire had his matches stolen, he might not be able to fill the gap because he doesn't know how to make matches.

I love studying and practicing primitive skills and take all of the courses in them that I can. When you know how to do something at the absolute bottom of the technology curve then you can improvise in just about any situation.

He had a camcorder, which would have allowed two different ways to light a fire without resorting to friction fire (rubbing 2 sticks together).

Thanks for all the replys but still besides two sticks what could a person do that was not a survival expert do. No he is not going to distoy his camera equipment as it is suppose to be just a person with a knife. When I read this I thought of Tom Hanks in Castaway who did not even have a knife.

The bamboo method looks good but still you need specialize materials. What other options are there?

thanks again.

Friction and sparking are the only 100% reliable options if you have no specialized tools. Just study the elementary physics a little bit and experiment with any available flammable materials.

He should of started looking for something which would generate a spark when struck with his carbon steel knife, such as a nodule of Flint or Pyrites. Flint is usually dark-grey, blue, black, or deep brown in colour, and often has a glassy appearance. It occurs chiefly as nodules and masses in sedimentary rocks, such as chalks and limestones. The tinder he should have then used should have been the blackened wood dust results from the failure to light a fire from the friction fire lighting.

The failure to light a fire by just friction methods would have simply been down to the humidity and the type of wood available to use. The truth about friction fire lighting is that almost impossible without the right wood, technique and favorable conditions. There is an assumption that any wood which can be located and prepared can be used to make fire. Some assume that it is just down to finding some hardwood and softwood and take it from there. Mahogany wood for instance is useless for friction fire lighting. A lot of people assume that the so called primitive peoples just have this skill to light a fire anytime anyplace they find themselves, they do not. Just as everyone here on the forum may EDC a ferrocerium rod and striker, these folks will carry with them their favorite wood fire block, stick and bow, usually around their necks in a leather bag ensuring that the wood is always bone dry. The wood block is the most important piece of wood and the wood that has been found to best for friction fire lighting is from Ivy or even Walnut. The best stick being from bay-laurel.

Further info on fire lighting can be found here at

http://snowy.arsc.alaska.edu/gutenberg/1/4/6/8/14681/14681-h/14681-h.htm#ch22

The Stone Age was in reality the Flint Age.

When Ishi was asked later in life what the most amazing modern thing he had seen since coming out of the woods was he said matches. Although he walked out of the wilderness into a modern world it wasn't cars, planes or buildings it was matches that impressed him the most. He knew the value of fire and anything that made it "instant" and easy was amazing and valuable to him.

After a while he must be realizing that matches are no good at all. Very limited supply, not windproof, not waterproof... That's more like a fireworks impression, I guess. But I can see your point

I'm going to rent QUEST FOR FIRE and practise with all my methods while watching it. One of the artifacts found with Oetzi was the remains of a live coal carried on his person along with sparking kit. I would argue the many 'Sacred fires' of many peoples are just that, recognition that fire is what makes us unique in all of Nature and creation. Primal peoples ( I hate the perjorative primitive) simply didn't wait for a blizzard to start making fire from scratch 24/7. Man standing nekkid in the wilderness with only his knife is mere romantic hubris, aka stupidity.

Or some kind of mental disorder...

I hope it works for you. I've seen Chariots of Fire twice and it hasn't help my fire-making skills one bit.

LOL

-Blast

The flaw with developing a 'survivor' mindset is the mental template of what we do to survive.We all have this Walter Mitty moment of imagining the day when FINALLY, one of us actully gets to pull our PSK out,initiate the STOP ancronym ( or in my case- What the BLANK was I supposed to do next?)and begin doing ABC... So what if we DO fail miserably to make a fire? What do we do instead?

"...What do we do instead?..."

Look for someone to buy beg borrow or steal some from???

(I'm serious by the way)

Chris, your posts are full of old American and British cultural references, to the extent that it's hard for me to follow. When you post, I have Wikipedia and Merriam-Webster ready. Last time I had to watch Monty Python sketches on youtube. Now I have to rent The secret life of Walter Mitty movie.

Walter Mitty == mall ninja

Cliff notes on old Walter...

Funny, my Walter Mitty moments happen mostly during work. Almost all during work. Funny that...

At the risk of going off tangent, I bought a firesteel about 3 weeks ago. Apparently it's a pretty, useless tool in my hands. I've been practicing for a while, but can't get past the sparking stage. Am I doing something wrong, or just fire-impaired? Any help/advice appreciated.....

Tinder is the key. Try to make some char cloth in the cooking foil, and then practice igniting it with the firesteel. Then move to some more readily available tinder like cotton balls. At some point you'll feel how it works.

Without seeing what you're doing, it'd be hard to give much advice, but there are a few common areas where people go wrong.

Tinder:
As Alex mentioned above, tinder is a key part of getting a spark to catch, and with that thought in mind, I carry tinder "just in case". I usually try to start a fire with tinder I find out in nature, but even so I always carry tinder with me as a backup.

Light and fluffy is the general idea you want to think about when looking for tinder. What that means is surface area and oxygen, essentially. Another important factor is that your tinder needs to be dry unless it's something like WetFire Tinder.

Natural tinders such as cattail down, milkweed silk, cedar bark, some other finely shaved dry woods and grasses, some dry mosses and fungi, and so on work well.

Prepared tinders such as cotton balls saturated with vaseline, drier lint, char cloth, Tinder-Quick, Mayadust, etc. work well. Some of the prepared tinders such as Tinder-Quick and WetFire Tinder use chemicals that ignite quickly when a spark is added to quicken the process.

Start with something easy like cattail down, a fluffed cotton ball or drier lint and once you see how quickly those will catch with a firesteel you can move on to other tinders with some confidence that it's possible.

On another note, form is important as well.

I can't remember who mentioned it, but an ETS forum member shared the idea that instead of pushing the knife or sparker down a firesteel toward the tinder, it's better to hold the knife or sparker in place and draw the firesteel backward to prevent accidental scattering of the tinder. That idea helped me a lot.

Yes, yes, all this is somewhat rhetorical once the situation is upon us. The context of the whole thing seems to be to first understand that a thing can be done, then to develop a mindset such that when confronted with a given situation, you can use the best tool you have to find the solution. I go back to the Anthony Hopkins mantra that 'what one man can do, another can do" in expounding that it isn't the equipment or the training necessarily as much as it is the recognition of the usefulness and adaptability that will determine our success in preserving our skins. Practicing a skill set has dual value in that should you face like circumstances with like gear, you can duplicate the results. But more importantly, can you adapt what you've learned or can you use such knowledge to help solve other problems? Can you figure out what to do when the variables change, and execute it in time to do you any good? There will always be something more you wished you'd have included in your edc when the bubble pops. The trick is to try and make what you have at hand work for you. How long did Tom Hanks' character try to make the fireplow work before he finally was successful? Obviously trying to master certain skills is more desirable as a pre-emptive effort. But don't pigeon hole what you've learned into a limitation on what is possible.

Think Man! Here's the equation, go solve it. Use sticks, use stones, but for Booddah's sake, use your noggin!!!

Think? Man.. it's summer vacation...
I've managed fairly easily to get dry cotton balls to light up (as well as the with PJ added). So far for other tinder I've tried dry grass, dog hair (she's shedding like mad), crushed leaves and poorly-carved fire sticks. No cat tails grow around here.

Probably going to BBQ tonight; will try my hand at char cloth before I throw meat on the grill. It'll give me something else to try.

I suppose a better add-on to my original statement would be, how do I improve with natural tinders? I can carry a billion cotton balls, but eventually they'll run out, y'know?

Its human nature (as a group) to be lazy. Move a few steps up the ladder of ease, and the third generation won't know what to do if they're pushed back two steps. It doesn't matter if its in the making of fire, catching of food, or washing of laundry. There are (some) people now who can't figure out how to get into their cars if the battery on their electronc door opener dies.

There was an old movie about an upper crust English couple who get stranded on an island with their butler. The couple were helpless. It was the butler who knew how to do a lot to keep them alive.

Can you imagine the horror of six teenagers stranded on a tropical island with no batteries?

If Ishi couldn't start a fire, how did he burn his hair off?

Sue

this has truly been an interesting read. In my opinion friction fire can be had with any wood so long as the conditions are right.

Two years ago Cody Lundin, Tom Robinson, and I started a handrill fire with Desert Ironwood. Yes, it took the three of us and ripped my hands up, but none the less we did it.

Since then, I've managed to get coals with Oak and other hardwoods... for fun!

I still carry a flare and a lighter.

Alan