Sorry if you think I having a dig at the US army. I don't know about the Boy Scouts in the US, but I do know about the UK Army Cadet force.

From the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Cadet_Force#Map_and_Compass



The three star army cadets (typically 15 to 16 years) candidates are practicing CQBs, advanced night time navigation and 15 mile route marches with 40 lb kit loads with bergens.

The four star army cadets (typically 16 to 17) are practicing advanced field craft and may be carrying again 40 lb kit loads with bergens over 20 mile routes.

I really wouldn't be so quick to judge Sprader, especially considering there is so little factual information on the incident available at this stage. Assumptions aren't worth much but one thing we can probably assume is that Sprader wasn't too enthusiastic about dying in the desert. It's not an easy way to go dying of heat exhaustion and dehydration. Many better ways out there to commit a suicide.

Hard to say but perhaps Sprader was simply a victim of the gung-ho mentality so prevalent in some branches of the military these days. Could be he realized he made a mistake and was desperate to set things right anyway, without waiting for rescue and admitting he was in a bad situation. It's happened before. Running around hooah in a hot climate will lead to dehydration very rapidly. A lot sooner than you realize. 90°F doesn't sound that bad but high humidity is a problem, maybe intense sun exposure, too. You can carry plenty of water but if you don't drink enough regularly you might still dehydrate in a matter of hours. At this stage you're going to be dizzy and even less capable of making rational decisions than you were before (and Sprader clearly wasn't doing too well in that department). Maybe he also had a health condition that we don't know about. Add anxiety, fear of ridicule by his friends, failing the test, whatever... All the little factors adding up. In any case, you can still die in that kind of situation even though it may look totally harmless to an armchair observer.

LOL... And just how good are those cadets at Land Nav after sitting behind a supply room desk for several years? Skills have to be used if they are to be maintained.


I agree with Nighthiker the guy sounded like he was part of CID. Its not like he was in the field keeping his filedcraft skills sharp, but I'll bet you money he could have given you an education in crime scene investigation.

The point I'm trying to make is 1. Please spare me the "How great so and so is compared to somebody else" 2. Lets not jump to conclussion on whether or not the system is broken, I would like to remind people that hundreds of soldiers take and pass the Land Nav section of WLC every year. These unfortunate instances like this are few and far between when you actually consider teh numbers.

I really don;t mind someone saying (or INFERRING) the UK is superior to the US in many aspects, as long as I know they haven;t studied the War of Independence, World War I (special emphasis here), and World War II. If I find out they HAVE studied their history, then I'm tempted to call them out for feigning superiority. Otherwise, it's just loveable ignorance, of which I'm guilty of myself on any given day.

What about a spider bite to add to the Sergeant's stressed condition? I know there are black widows there and might be some brown recluses too. I don;t think either would show up right away, at least not soon enough for newspaper writers to get their story out. Then again, perhaps the Army is not releasing everything they know...at least not until they "know" it.

Does this training take place before or after their classes on surrendering and turning traitor?

Are the stories true that they stopped issuing UK soldiers white underwear?

-Blast

Bashing the US is the main reason he comes here. That's why so many of us have him on "ignore". Unfortunately, when his posts are quoted, we have to see his anti-US drivel anyway.

For some reason, it doesn;t bother me much when coming from the Brits, the Welsh, Scots, or my ancestral Irish laddys. If the perpetraitor (sic) were French.... well now, that's a different story and I'd be more than tempted to ignore the forum rules and courtesies and risk a spanking. ((( )))

Very wise of you to delete those words, my across the pond brother. Let's concentrate on the topic of this thread.

Lots of things we can add.

Last time I popped my patella out of place, it went back in on its own with very little visible swelling. I still couldn't put my weight on the stupid thing for two days without the help of a cane AND a brace, or it would slip out again.

Other possibilities is he only had two quarts of water plus whatever he'd drank after the bladder popped.

Autopsy is going to have to make the call. Anyone who wants to try to make a comment about Spader at this point is trying to make hay.

What about the possibility that he was hustling and couldn't cool down due to the humidity. Sweat doesn't help if you don't have evaporative cooling. He dehydrates due to sweat, but it doesn't do enough good and then he is out of water; maybe early on.

Then, if he doesn't find additional water and has no cell coverage, it's a pretty bleak situation.

As noted above, being close to water doesn't help you if you don't know it is there.

I think we all forget that the human body is a great enigma. Sometimes the body can withstand tremendous amounts of abuse. Sometimes it takes almost nothing at all to kill us.

-john