This is a story with a bad ending. He seemed equipped pretty well but it still turned out bad for this soldier in Ft Hood TX. It seems odd he died of dehydratin but they said plenty of water was nearby.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4887091.html


Soldier who died in Texas was dehydrated

By JIM VERTUNO Associated Press Writer
© 2007 The Associated Press


FORT HOOD, Texas — A soldier who went missing for four days after a solo navigation exercise died of hyperthermia and dehydration, according to autopsy results released Wednesday.

The body of Sgt. Lawrence G. Sprader, 25, was found Tuesday night in a brushy area on the Central Texas Army post's training ground, said Eddy Howton, Fort Hood's director of emergency services. About 3,000 people, including soldiers, covered more than 30 square miles searching for him in 90-degree heat.

A brief report on the autopsy, conducted at the Southwestern Institute of Forensics Sciences at Dallas, was released by a Bell County justice of the peace. The report did not provide further details.

Officials have said Sprader had two canteens of water, a water backpack and two Meals Ready To Eat when he left. His body was found near plenty of drinking water from creeks and other sources, said Robert Volk, Fort Hood's chief game warden.

Officials do not suspect foul play, said Lt. Col. Carter Oates, commander of the 11th MP Battalion, Criminal Investigations Division, where Sprader was assigned.

Sprader disappeared Friday during the exercise testing basic map-reading and navigation skills in a rugged exercise area at the sprawling central Texas post.

Officials declined to answer questions about whether there were signs of distress that might indicate how Sprader died, saying all that is under investigation. Eddy Howton, Fort Hood's director of emergency services, said he did not know if searchers found anything that would indicate how long Sprader had been dead.

Commanders said that when they reached Sprader on his phone late Friday — the last time anyone spoke to him — he was determined to finish the exercise and did not indicate he was ill or distressed.

"He was a model soldier. He had a goal to succeed," Oates said.

Sprader was one of nearly 320 noncommissioned officers taking part in a two-week leadership course. Nine other soldiers got lost during the three-hour exercise, but all except Sprader got back to the rally point safely by following the sound of a siren that blasts when time is up, said Col. Diane Battaglia, a III Corps spokeswoman at Fort Hood.

Post officials said no other soldier had ever been lost on the heavily used range long enough to prompt such a huge search.

Sprader had returned from an Iraq deployment in September and worked in the criminal investigation division of Fort Hood. The Prince George, Va., soldier had no orders for redeployment to the war zone.

"Being near..." very true. What I'm more interested in is did he still have water in his gear?

I grew up over there. Is it possible he drank some creek water, got sick, which then led to severe dehydration?

Again, even with all the creeks over there, he may have just missed them each time he was near. Also, it's possible he had taken some medication, had the wrong diet before the exercises, or been suffering from some other mild malady that was magnified by the stress, heat, and lack of fluids.

It sounds like he had his cell phone with him. The whole situation sounds a little strange. It's sad.

90 degrees. Wow. I used to dig ditches, and work in the oil fields, in 100+ degree heat without ill effect (other than being pooped at the end of the day). I suspect that there is more to this story than we know...

This story doesn't make any sense at all. A 3 hour orientation course would be typically only 10 miles in length, the furthest point away would have been only 5 miles away, 3 miles if we assume a somewhat circular path. The soldier was equipped with water (3-5 litres of water being carried, which was plenty for a 3hr jaunt) and food (though why he was carrying food is another mystery for such a short 3 hr orientation/navigation course) together with a map and compass and a cellular phone. I've looked on google earth, the terrain is not difficult, being mostly flat and is criss crossed by dirt roads and other easily identifiable landmarks. To be found 4 days later having died from hypothermia and dehydration doesn't make any sense at all especially considering the small search area.

Could it have been that the tragic death of this soldier was due to the fact that he was unable to start a fire? Hypothermia led to disorientation and consequently led to dehydration when his canteen water ran out.

Even though the soldier was on a 2 week leadership course, I am surprised that so many NCOs who must of have some considerable army experience could not cope with basic map and compass work with 9 others getting lost.

What is the training given to even basic army recruits on navigation and basic survival skills (considering that most survival skills are essentially just basic common sense) such as water procurement and signaling technique (even more of a mystery since the story implied he had a mobile phone)?

Reminds me of another story about Marine Lance Corporal Jason Rother

Quoting from the article:


Sounds like a truly freak occurance. I agree with Stretch and wonder if he had some as-yet undiagnosed medical condition?

It's hyPERthermia, not hypothermia

In my last post I actually did mean hypothermia (cold weather injury) rather than hyperthermia (heat stroke). Surviving 90 degree heat with adequate water (the soldier reportedly had a camelbak and 2 canteens, about 4-5 litres, this would have been more than sufficient) is easier than surviving 32 degree cold (could it have rained during the night) during the night time without adequate clothing and shelter protection or the skills and ability to light a fire. But if the soldier had suffered heat stroke then most likely he would have died on the same day within hours of the navigation exercise finishing before the cooler temperatures of the evening. But I would have found this unlikely simply because 4-5 litres of water would have been sufficient to make it through until the cooling evening temperatures. He could of then walked the 3-4 miles home during the cooler evening temperatures if he knew how to use a map and compass with very little water. If this soldier had not died because of an unrelated medical condition this is certainly a most bizarre tragedy.

It's summertime here in our part of the world and here in the southwest, well like elsewhere, it gets hot. Every summer we have illegal aliens dying in the desert. Most are female, slightly overweight, and all from hyPERthermic dehydration. The problem is, that's just the end result and it's easy to presume that the dehydration occurred only because the person didn;t have enough water. But I've come to the conclusion that there's usually an underlying condition or circumstance that leads to the dehydration.

In "most" of these alien death cases, there is water available to the person who died. So then there are guesses as to the onset of the dehydration. Now if we just consider Mexican aliens, these people will travel by bus from wherever in their country. Then, they'll sometimes wait for days and weeks along the border, making arrangements and waiting for their group to cross. During this time, they're out of their home element, eating poorly, possibly drinking some bad water here and there, and suffering worry and stress. The womenfolk are housewives, not mountainbikers, so the initial jaunt even in good health is hard for them, leaving aside all the other factors. Then, to top it off, there've been reports (unsubstantiated as of yet) that the guides will often recommend or dole out pills (probably amphetamines) to help boost their energy for the initial hike.

I know this was a little OT, but in this soldier's case, I tend to think of pre-existing conditions when I hear a story like that. Not necessarily long-term conditions, it could be as simple as a mild flu virus that he might have contracted the very day he set out.

I have to agree with some others though, the story leaves alot to be desired and it all sounds strange. There are too many reasons for a trained military professional NOT to die in that neck of the woods.

This is an odd story. There has to be some medical reason for this mans death. Fort Hood is in area that does not have overly intense terrain. Temperature in the 90's are not that bad especially for a soldier that has been in Iraq.

Its a sad story but a lesson for all of us. I started teaching my 7 year old son compass and map skills. I learn how to take care of myself early as a child. Seems like most urban kids do not have a clue.

Oh one more thing. That's Texas hill country and the humidity levels are very high. Where I live, 110 in the summer is to be expected, but humidity is relatively low. Over there, he'd be sweating even sitting under a shade tree.

Excellent comparison between the two. Thanks for that.

I agree, much more detail is needed to reasonably analyze this story. As others have said, an inconvenient medical condition may have been a big factor.

I have to say, though, that in one respect it is an example of how we all love a winner and dump on the losers. If he had survived he would be congratulated on his "never quit" attitude and "hoo-ah" dedication. Since he failed, he gets criticized for being prideful and having "summit fever".

In the US Army some of the most idolized soldiers are the ones in SF (and particularly SFOD-D ), who are legendary for pressing on no matter what the circumstance. This is true even in their training evolutions, where they are frequently offered the chance to quit. I have seen commentary from more than a few SF trainers who say that the chief thing they really hate in a candidate is being a quitter.

Again, lots more detail is needed but I think it is remiss to slag this guy for pressing on. It is a fundamentally prized character trait of his peer group.

You woulb be surprised, I know an E-7 who is hopeless with a map and compass.

I hate to say this but... May-be he didn't want to found.
Its pretty obvious he wasn't going pass the Land Nav section of Warrior Leadership Course (new name for PLDC) and instead of retaking it and a possible demotion back to E-4 he chose to do teh unthinkable instead.

Thanks for the pictures showing the type of terrain. When I was on Google earth it gave the terrain as being between around 220 to 300 metres in height over most of the camp, which is about 260 feet difference between the high and low points. Perhaps I should have described the terrain as gently rolling small hill country rather than being flat. The search area does not in anyway seem to be extreme or something that I would call difficult to navigate (the hills give some contour information on the map, which is easier to navigate on rather than being completely flat).

I've also read some of the previous articles. It does appear that it had been raining heavily in the area,

From http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4881251.html



Maybe thats why the foliage in the photos look reasonably green and lush. The search officials were also concerned that Sprader may have been disabled because of a snake bite.

When I was comparing the two stories, I was really just pointing out that is that it appears that rudimentary SERE or even basic survival skills seem to be lacking in both cases despite their army experience or lack thereof. Navigational skills again appear to be poor in both cases also. I do accept that their are major differences between the two cases but the failure to train these basic skills may have in both cases may have led to a different outcome.

I'm sorry to say but even 13 and 14 year old teenage army cadets in the UK seem to have a better understanding of navigation using a map and compass than some of the military professionals with many years experience in the US army. Some of these NCO's on a leadership course even required a siren so that they could find their way home. Did all the course candidates carry a mobile phone just in case they got lost? It appears that the course leadership phoned Sprader to ask where he was!!

The more information about this tragic incident leads me more to the conclusion that this soldiers death was avoidable unless of another unreported medical emergency. It's beginning to seem like the US army needs to buy some PLBs for their future candidates on this basic map and compass navigation course.

I grew up fairly close to this area (and still live fairly close). I also think it's kind of a bizarre story. At worst, he should have just had a miserable four days without a shower.

I will say that Friday was rather hot: 95 or 96 and just so humid you dripped (a month from now, we'll be longing for the "nice" days like that). My first thoughts were that he was from somewhere where he just wasn't used to the heat. However, he's done a tour in Iraq (VERY hot, BUT dry) and is from Georgia.

The water thing is also bizarre. We've had one of the wettest springs I can ever remember here. Water, even in the fractured limestone of the hill country, is rather easy to find right now. I seriously doubt he drank "bad" water and succumbed so quickly. First, as I've already alluded to, there's very little stagnant water with all the rain we've had. Second, stomach bugs take a few days to really kick in.

About the cell phone. He likely just didn't have any signal. There's a lot of dead spots around this area (especially with Nextel, uggghh). That part doesn't really stand out.

The last thing that makes it odd is that he was found in very thick brush. Apparantly, thick enough that you almost have to crawl in. That's why they had such a tough time finding him. Crawling off into the thick brush, when you know searchers will soon be looking, is antithetical to everything that's taught about survival.

Not trying to dump on the guy, but the facts right now show that he made the wrong decision at EVERY juncture of his short adventure.

Please state the source that backs up this statement. If you mean that the average Boy Scout knows more about navigation than the average soldier you may be right.

The English vs US portion of this statement serves no point other than your typical UK-centric bashing of the US.
Your above statement did not need to include yet another UK=good US=Not good comparison.


I am very proud of my country and I would appreciate it if you would limit your comments to the subjects at hand rather than additional comments on how you consider the US to be inferior to the UK.

That's funny, I do the same thing exctept that I only see what someone else quotes. Maybe we make a drinking game out of it. Of course, we'd have to drink good American bourbon not that UK stuff that tastes like someone peed on swamp muck...

-Blast

Trying to hurry in the heat and high humidity could lead to heat exhaustion, which can include mental confusion. Keep going, don't drink enough, go into heat stroke, and die.

Add an unknown medical condition or medication, and the situation could escalate even faster.

I doubt that it could have been snakebite, as someone mentioned. I've never heard of a case of snakebite without obvious symptoms, invisible even at a cursory autopsy.

Sue

Sorry if you think I having a dig at the US army. I don't know about the Boy Scouts in the US, but I do know about the UK Army Cadet force.

From the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Cadet_Force#Map_and_Compass



The three star army cadets (typically 15 to 16 years) candidates are practicing CQBs, advanced night time navigation and 15 mile route marches with 40 lb kit loads with bergens.

The four star army cadets (typically 16 to 17) are practicing advanced field craft and may be carrying again 40 lb kit loads with bergens over 20 mile routes.

I really wouldn't be so quick to judge Sprader, especially considering there is so little factual information on the incident available at this stage. Assumptions aren't worth much but one thing we can probably assume is that Sprader wasn't too enthusiastic about dying in the desert. It's not an easy way to go dying of heat exhaustion and dehydration. Many better ways out there to commit a suicide.

Hard to say but perhaps Sprader was simply a victim of the gung-ho mentality so prevalent in some branches of the military these days. Could be he realized he made a mistake and was desperate to set things right anyway, without waiting for rescue and admitting he was in a bad situation. It's happened before. Running around hooah in a hot climate will lead to dehydration very rapidly. A lot sooner than you realize. 90°F doesn't sound that bad but high humidity is a problem, maybe intense sun exposure, too. You can carry plenty of water but if you don't drink enough regularly you might still dehydrate in a matter of hours. At this stage you're going to be dizzy and even less capable of making rational decisions than you were before (and Sprader clearly wasn't doing too well in that department). Maybe he also had a health condition that we don't know about. Add anxiety, fear of ridicule by his friends, failing the test, whatever... All the little factors adding up. In any case, you can still die in that kind of situation even though it may look totally harmless to an armchair observer.

LOL... And just how good are those cadets at Land Nav after sitting behind a supply room desk for several years? Skills have to be used if they are to be maintained.


I agree with Nighthiker the guy sounded like he was part of CID. Its not like he was in the field keeping his filedcraft skills sharp, but I'll bet you money he could have given you an education in crime scene investigation.

The point I'm trying to make is 1. Please spare me the "How great so and so is compared to somebody else" 2. Lets not jump to conclussion on whether or not the system is broken, I would like to remind people that hundreds of soldiers take and pass the Land Nav section of WLC every year. These unfortunate instances like this are few and far between when you actually consider teh numbers.

I really don;t mind someone saying (or INFERRING) the UK is superior to the US in many aspects, as long as I know they haven;t studied the War of Independence, World War I (special emphasis here), and World War II. If I find out they HAVE studied their history, then I'm tempted to call them out for feigning superiority. Otherwise, it's just loveable ignorance, of which I'm guilty of myself on any given day.

What about a spider bite to add to the Sergeant's stressed condition? I know there are black widows there and might be some brown recluses too. I don;t think either would show up right away, at least not soon enough for newspaper writers to get their story out. Then again, perhaps the Army is not releasing everything they know...at least not until they "know" it.

Does this training take place before or after their classes on surrendering and turning traitor?

Are the stories true that they stopped issuing UK soldiers white underwear?

-Blast

Bashing the US is the main reason he comes here. That's why so many of us have him on "ignore". Unfortunately, when his posts are quoted, we have to see his anti-US drivel anyway.

For some reason, it doesn;t bother me much when coming from the Brits, the Welsh, Scots, or my ancestral Irish laddys. If the perpetraitor (sic) were French.... well now, that's a different story and I'd be more than tempted to ignore the forum rules and courtesies and risk a spanking. ((( )))

Very wise of you to delete those words, my across the pond brother. Let's concentrate on the topic of this thread.

Lots of things we can add.

Last time I popped my patella out of place, it went back in on its own with very little visible swelling. I still couldn't put my weight on the stupid thing for two days without the help of a cane AND a brace, or it would slip out again.

Other possibilities is he only had two quarts of water plus whatever he'd drank after the bladder popped.

Autopsy is going to have to make the call. Anyone who wants to try to make a comment about Spader at this point is trying to make hay.

What about the possibility that he was hustling and couldn't cool down due to the humidity. Sweat doesn't help if you don't have evaporative cooling. He dehydrates due to sweat, but it doesn't do enough good and then he is out of water; maybe early on.

Then, if he doesn't find additional water and has no cell coverage, it's a pretty bleak situation.

As noted above, being close to water doesn't help you if you don't know it is there.

I think we all forget that the human body is a great enigma. Sometimes the body can withstand tremendous amounts of abuse. Sometimes it takes almost nothing at all to kill us.

-john

That's a very good point, John.

A bunch of submicroscopic bugs (viruses) can take us down in a short period of time...strange ain't it?

I wonder if post-traumatic stress disorder (since he was in Iraq) could have played a role in causing panic and confusion...sad

I spent alot of time out in the woods at Fort Hood from 90 to 93. All over the whole post. One thing that I would suspect is Snake bite. I've run into alot of rattlers out there and others that I had no idea what they were.

Spider bites and those big orange centipedes are a possibility too.

Nighthiker is right about the suppliments too. Way too many people trying to "bulk up" in the army.

Even in the hottest of summers there is plenty of water to be found anywhere on Fort Hood if you look for it.

The typical land nav course in the army starts with classroom refresher on map and compass reading and then goes out to the bush. The course for WLC would be a commonly used course that isn't out of the way and they would be given a "panic azimuth" to have on them in case of emergency that would take them to a road that they could follow back to civilization. Overall, land nav training in the army is terrible. They dont teach what people really need to learn, terrain association. How to read the land is very important. That is hard to teach. The proliferation of GPS's hasn't helped things much either. I know people that cant even follow a GPS to get where they need to go. Would go right off a cliff or through a building if they could.

Jimtanker,

Could you please explain more about what you mean by terrain association and reading the land?

Thanks!

-Blast

Terrain association is basically reading a map and not using a compass. If I am standing on this hilltop and there is a stream over here and a saddle to my right I am right here and I need to go this way. Its hard for me to explain. Being a tanker I have almost never used a compass when navigating. Being in a big steel box it isn't very easy to get a good reading with one. LOL. Also I'm normally traveling faster than 25MPH. I have learned the ability to glance at a map and be able to travel extended distances by just reading the different types of terreain that is around me. Following depressions or ridgelines. I guess that after years of coordinating crew duties, navigating my tank, and communicating on the radio, all at the same time, it is just a natural thing to me.

There is a pretty good explanation of terrain association at: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-26/ch11.htm

(sorry, don't know how to post a link here.)

Global security is a great resourse to find information on the military. Check out all of the nice unclassified FMs available to you there.

Cool, I just realized that 90% of my nav in the woods is done by terrain association. The compass is really used just to orient the map, and myself.

Although I've practiced it quite a bit, I've hardly ever actually used classic straight-line travel along a compass heading to get from point A to point B.

I have used resection/triangulation more often, but usually using one landmark in combination with the terrain feature that I was standing on (ie bearing to landmark intersecting with a ridgeline).

Ah, so it is the ability to look at a topo map and match the features on the map to what you see, correct? That would be a very useful skill and one that would take a while to acquire.

Thanks for explaining!

-Blast

This is off-topic, but this is not really that strange. When you remove predators of equal size from an ecosystem, the dominant predator takes over. Then that predator is 'preyed' upon by something much smaller or itself becomes weaker because it isn't constantly challenged by another predator.

Since humans are not really predated upon by anything of equal size, at least not in civilized areas, the main cause of our demise is micropredation by bugs i.e. viruses, drug resistant bacteria etc. And/or our own weakening, viz the recent obesity epidemic, do you think any of these people could outrun or fight a large predator?

Interestingly, this also occurs for other systems. USA doesn't have a large enemy like the USSR anymore, now we get attacked by small terrorist groups, or our own internal problems. Same thing is occurring to Microsoft, it has no equal competitor in the software field, it's therefore attacked by software viruses and anarchic computer nerds that write GNU/Linux.

It does take a lot of practice. I used to be pretty good at it (like many skills, you lose it if you don't use it, and I haven't used it in a while). If you get a topo map of the area you play in, and get out into that area often, using first the map, compass, and your eyes, then just the map and eyes, you will be surprised how you will become able to look at the terrain, then at your map (or the other way around), and know where you are. I hope that sentence makes sense, I'm pooped from a long hard day...

Blast,
Get a topo of an area you are familiar with that has some real varying topography. Go out and constantly match features to the map.
Get to a very identifiable feature like a lake so you can pinpoint your location then start finding the nearby peaks and ridges on the map. The go to the top of a hill/ Mtn and look down matching features. Look at the map with a "wide angle" and the landscape will start to reveal itself. Also get a book like "Staying Found" and you can learn how the contour lines show peaks, valleys, ridges etc.
In time it will all piece itself together then you got to keep using it. It is also a matter of contant awareness of your surroundings; this helps a lot.
Bill

Not very familiar with Texas topography are you?

The area around me is dead flat for 70 miles to the south, 200 miles to the north and east, and 800 miles to the west.

My choices are flat prairie or flat pine forest forest.

-Blast

"...My choices are flat prairie or flat pine forest forest..."

And yet you chose to live there...

Find north. Go south-east. When you find a river, follow it the big salty water. Go east, following the coast. Eventually you will find civilization. Sorta.

Not so much chose as was bribed

Someday, Wyoming!

-Blast

Florida? Um, no thanks...

-Blast

[deleted by admin - you know better!]

There are a lot of things in this report that we're not privy to, don't jump to conclusions.

You can even practice with almost any map.

Take road maps for instance, you can use what little terrain features they give (such as the lay of the road itself, intersecting roads, streams and rivers, and elevational map color changes) to figure out where you are and track your progress as you drive.

Try it some time if your riding in the passenger seat.

Once you get the hang of it you can use those same basic skills on more detailed maps for cross country navigation.

If you want more info on the subject another term for Terrain Assoc navigation is Orienterring and there are several books out on it.

This thread was closed by one of the other moderators. I've received several PMS asking why 'I ' closed it. I've reviewed the posts.Comments on the deceased soldier's ability or possible mindset and contributing factors came from a few peers. Comments about UK cadets superior navigational skills are at best amusing, considering the paras who stumbled into the Republic and were mercifully arrested by the Gardai 5 minutes before yet another bunch showed up. I've reopened the thread because of the considerable interest. This is a warning to those who would get lost in ill conceived comments due to lack of proper drink.

Lat 44.475499 Lon -115.154247 Elevation 2630m looking at an approximate bearing of 100 degrees so I would have to say Inland Lake.

Actually the picture looks as though it is taken from the trail on the side the mountain at the same elevation as the peak in the main photo rather than at the top of Ruffneck peak which is some 330 metres or 1000ft higher as indicated on the topo map.

21st century Cyberspace warrior training and access to highly detailed satellite and airspace photographic intelligence of the continental United States.

I was guessing Island (inland?) Lake too last night, but couldn;t post. I'm not sure if I used the right mapreading or not, but I was concentrating on that tight band of circles that I figured was the hill behind the lake.

Google earth???

My guess is also island lake, next to the knob. The other hints are that there is a ridge to the right that comes down from ruffneck peak that joins the knob and there is another peak far across the valley beyond the knob and almost in line with it. Was the picture taken in the afternoon?

I was just trying to find some more follow-up info about Sgt Sprader this morning. I was saddened to see one article mention that "[Sgt Sprader's parents] have been disheartened by postings on Internet message boards that focus the blame on his son." (http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/0607/2001_lawrence_sprader_update.html)

Although I had not complained about this particular thread to the moderators, I do agree that I thought it quickly became rather unseemly. I think that there is still a great divide among society at large between those who think everything on the Internet is anonymous or like a private chat with your friends at a bar after work, versus those who consider their postings to be an extension of how they would act in the real world and that everything we post can be found by the people we are discussing.

For me, when someone posts a story about someone who just died, I try to judge my words by first asking myself, "Would I feel comfortable saying this in the presence of this person's family at the upcoming funeral?" If not, I won't post my comment. And this was a poor story to discuss anyway because of the lack of details.

I think, and I guess some other members feel the same way, otherwise the thread wouldn't have been locked, that some of the speculation raised by others seems to speak ill of Sgt Sprader unfairly.

Well, first, I say "unfairly" because this speculation is not based on facts. Suicide? Any evidence to suggest he committed suicide? Prohibited supplements? PTSD? Pride? Something like suicide is a serious thing to allude to when there is no factual basis to make that statement and is something that can really upset people who knew him. If he left a journal full of emotional turmoil, that's one thing, but there is no evidence to indicate that this was anything more than a terrible accident.

Secondly, raising these possibilities can be perceived as being disrespectful for the recently deceased. Even if the poster does not directly suggest that Sgt Sprader is/did these things, raising these issues in the context of the thread that also describes his death gives that impression. That's just the way it comes across. I'm sure that there are countless examples of well-meaning people who were just trying to be "helpful" or "informative" saying things that are perceived by others as "blaming the victim" or "speaking ill of the dead".

Anyway, I don't want to belabor the point too much. If you honestly don't find a problem with the thread, OK, that's your opinion and your opinion is just a valid is mine. We all have varying sensibilities when it comes to what is or isn't appropriate in different situations. I'm just saying that I agree with those who had some issues with this thread.

Yep Google Earth!

I agree with Nighthiker that little if anything was said that was truly derogatory to Sgt Sprader. If the parents have access to the Army's investigative reports and notes, they'd be nowhere near as easy to manage as the speculation that's brewed in this thread. They'd be dealing with facts....and they can be tough...much tougher than what's been said here. One more thing, let's not forget we're not the only internet group talking about this soldier's demise.

Right now, and before, the parents and other family members are grieving. At this point in time, an obit in the local paper is a hard thing for them to read.

Fun thing to play with...

I don't think the comments regarding Sgt. Sprader were what got the thread locked. And I agree with Nighthiker--the posts that commented on him specifically didn't seem to treat him badly. They expressed puzzlement more than anything alse. But, as you say, opinions can vary.

Here is a follow-up story:

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,147497,00.html?ESRC=army-a.nl

Army Sgt. Lawrence Sprader set out under the searing Texas sun on a map-reading exercise, carrying a cell phone in case he got hopelessly lost or fell ill in the hills and ravines of Fort Hood. And still he didn't make it out alive.

For more than an hour, a lost and dehydrated Sprader used his phone to repeatedly call superiors and tell them of his plight before the 24-year-old Iraq war veteran finally collapsed in the thick underbrush, where his decomposing body was discovered four days later.

How could that have happened?

A 1,700-page Army investigative report, obtained by The Associated Press through the Freedom of Information Act, details a multitude of procedural violations, judgment errors and alleged acts of misconduct by Army trainers that not only contributed to Sprader's death but put some 300 other Soldiers in danger that day, including about two dozen who required medical attention.

Among other things:

- The exercise was poorly planned and supervised, with trainers failing to patrol the countryside as required for Soldiers in distress.

- Participants were not given enough time to fill their canteens.

- Trainers did not keep a close enough watch on the mid-90s heat and humidity.

- And the Army made little effort to find Sprader until the training exercise was over.

"It's just something that shouldn't have happened, but it did," said his father Larry Sprader of Prince George, Va. "They should have been out there checking on the Soldiers, but they weren't."

Army officials last week announced they have suspended the officers in charge of the leadership-training academy that ran the exercise. Their lawyer said seven Soldiers were reprimanded and another was demoted for lying about the timing of his last phone communication with Sprader. The eight could still face criminal charges.

Their lawyer, John P. Galligan, said the Army is trying to make scapegoats out of them.

"This is a tragic accident," said Galligan, who, like the Army, declined to release the Soldiers' names. "I don't know why people are trying to find some crime here."

Sprader, who served twice in Iraq, disappeared June 8 - on a rugged, 1.5-square-mile expanse of scrub, tall grasses and cedar and juniper trees - during a solo exercise designed to test his map-reading and navigation skills. It was part of a two-week leadership skills course.

He was wearing a T-shirt, camouflage pants and a jacket and was equipped with a compass, map, knife and an M-16. He and some of the other Soldiers also had cell phones. (According to the report, some did not know they could bring phones.)

At some point, Sprader lost his score sheet, on which he was supposed to check off certain landmarks he had to find. Knowing he would probably have to retake the course, Sprader evidently panicked and got himself badly lost, according to investigators.

Exactly how many calls he made is not specified in the report, but his father said there were 16 - about half outgoing, half incoming. The elder Sprader said the last seven were incoming.

Many were one-minute calls; according to the report, calls are frequently dropped in the remote area. The report indicates that Sprader talked to someone at least twice and that he said he could hear a vehicle's horn. But the documents contain few details on what he said, or how lucid he might have been.

Typically, lost Soldiers are rescued by trainers who honk their horns and rely on the trainees to listen for the sound and guide them in the right direction. Cell phone signals cannot be used to pinpoint a person's location; they can only establish the general area where someone is believed to be.

Investigators found that Sprader and the 320 other Soldiers participating had already been exposed to the heat for hours before starting the course about noon. They had done some practice drills beginning at 9 a.m.

The exercise was moved up from 1 p.m. because of the heat. As a result, the Soldiers were rushed through a lunch break. Investigators believe Sprader did not have a chance to refill his two one-quart canteens before being sent out on the timed exercise.

Temperatures were in the low to mid-90s, and the heat index - the combined effect of heat and humidity - was measured at Category 5, the highest possible, at 11 a.m. at a nearby airport. Some Soldiers were overcome by heat before the exercise even began.

Army policy requires those in charge to monitor the heat index before and during such exercises. If the index is high, they are supposed to warn Soldiers to avoid overexertion and dehydration and, if the conditions are deemed dangerous, call off the exercise.

The Army report said that leaders of the group that included Sprader did not adequately monitor those conditions. But the report stops short of saying the leaders should have called off the exercise.

More than a dozen Soldiers ran out of water before completing the course and called to be picked up, some complaining of dizziness, vomiting or severe leg cramps.

A medic told investigators he suggested the exercise be stopped because of the mounting casualties. But he said he was told that only 10 minutes remained in the exercise, that only one Soldier was missing and that such a decision would result in too much paperwork.

All names except Sprader's were blacked-out in the report released to the AP.

In statements to investigators, Soldiers who participated in the training described chaotic, almost battlefield conditions. Some appeared to have passed out after completing the exercise; others received fluids intravenously.

"I start to see other Soldiers just as I am. They are drenched in sweat and red in the face," one Soldier said in a handwritten statement. "I don't have water. I notice many people laying in the shade looking passed out ... many calls for a medic."

By the time the exercise ended at about 3:15 p.m., at least 20 Soldiers were treated in the field for heat-related illnesses. Six others were taken to an Army hospital emergency room, including one who lost consciousness on the way.

According to the report, training leaders failed to ensure Soldiers were drinking enough water and refilling their canteens.

Also, investigators found there were too few water vehicles and leaders patrolling the course. Some trainers said they went out only after getting calls to help dehydrated or lost students, although they were supposed to be continuously patrolling on foot and in vehicles.

Sprader made his first call at 2:08 p.m., and not long after, three people went looking for him in a vehicle, according to the report. But the Army did not begin to mount a larger search until about 3:30 p.m., after the exercise was over and he was the only person still missing.

Training leaders are required to notify their superiors within an hour after a Soldier is lost. But investigators said that wasn't done until about 6 p.m.

One Soldier said that during the search, leaders "thought that it was a joke and were laughing and telling jokes throughout the day and didn't take it seriously." Another Soldier said there were rumors that Sprader had gone AWOL or claimed he was bitten by a snake.

The Soldier demoted for lying told investigators that Sprader called at 3:15 and 4:45 p.m., but Sprader's cell phone records show the last outgoing call at 2:56 and the last incoming call at 3:08. Both calls went unanswered.

On June 12, after finally receiving information about the location of Sprader's phone calls based on cell towers, hundreds of Soldiers went to that area. After a few smelled a strong odor, Sprader's body was discovered.

His empty canteens and a cap were found about 100 yards away.

Wow what a shame.
It sounds like he was let down by his superiors.
And a 2x Iraq vet; too bad. RIP

An excellent fictionalized account of Rother's ordeal -

When the Poor Boys Dance

http://www.amazon.com/When-Poor-Boys-Dance-Borden/dp/0446604070

From Publishers Weekly
The horrifying ordeal of a nameless young Marine accidentally abandoned during a training exercise in the Mojave Desert forms the basis of this intense third novel (after Seven Six One) from Borden. As the Marine treks for days and miles in the brutal, arid heat, he sustains himself through imaginary conversations with his drill instructor, Sergeant Kline, and other superior officers. Increasingly, these talks fade into hallucinations in which the Marine relives the final moments of fellow leathernecks in great battles of the past-Belleau Wood, Iwo Jima, Korea, Vietnam-and of today and tomorrow. Fraught with relentless depictions of the fiery desert, the horrors of war and the courage of fighting men, Borden's narrative, though sometimes transparently manipulative, is more often genuinely stirring. The title comes from an aphorism voiced by Sergeant Kline's: "War is when the poor boys dance."