Wildman800, kmat, and I have been discussing where to find fuel in a long-term emergency. The following are some of the places we've come up with:

Diesel
1. Transport barges and boats. They are loaded with several hundred gallons of fuel. Check areas known for water-based transportation of goods (large rivers, harbors, etc...)
2. Trains. They are actually powered by electric motors powered by giant diesel generators.
3. Trucking firm headquarters/garages.
4. Heavy equipment storage/repair/rental centers.
5. Airports
6. Farms

Gasoline
1. Automotive repair shops (small quantities)
2. lawnmowers/yard equipment/boats. Check garages and sheds, watch out for oil/gas mixes.
3. "Fleet garages" such as taxi companies or rental car companies. Most probably don't have stored gas but it might be worth checking.
4. From cars in long-term parking areas around airports and the such.
5. Marinas. Find out if there are any marinas/boat storage places on nearby lakes/rivers/oceans.
6. Lawncare company equipment storage areas

Kerosene
1. Airports. Jet fuels Avtur, Jet-A, Jet-A1, Jet-B, JP-4, JP-5, JP-7 or JP-8 (list from Wikipedia.org).
2. Farm/feed stores
3. NASA (RP-1 rocket fuel)

Propane
1. U-Stor-It type places. Many offer propane tank refilling services.
2. Many stores nowdays have exchange programs for 5-gal propane tanks.
3. Many stores including small convienence stores and truck stops carry small propane cylinders for campstove.
4. Other people's barbecue grills. Check garages, sheds, backyards.
5. RV dealers.

Anyway, these are just some thoughts to help get people thinking of "alternative fuel depots". Please add to the list any ideas you have.

Note: I do not support blatant theft of fuel from these locations. This is to stimulate thoughts on where fuel can be found if TSHTF.

Note-2: Coming up with this list it makes me think a diesel vehicle and generator would be the best TEOTWAWKI devices for my situation. I am located near a trainyard loaded with diesel as well as several large equipent and truck repair facilities. It seems to make sense to take into account what's available when making such plans...

-Blast, in awe of Wildman800's scrounging abilities

In the event of a major, major disaster and a truly dire need, don't forget car dealerships: they're everywhere, the cars on the lot each have at least a couple of gallons in them, and the service department usually has a few gallons around.

My father owns a construction business, and we keep 10,000 gallons of diesel and 2,000 gallons of gas, plus another couple hundred gallons of waste oil (until it gets pumped out).

You'd be surprised how many other local garages (and farms) have pretty big tanks of fuel. Also, I talk to the fuel delivery guy all the time and I ask him about his route. I've made note of who the closest people with large tanks are. (Just in case.)

By the way, don't forget that any house that uses oil heat is a source of diesel fuel and you can often get access to their tank right from the front lawn.

Public transit (bus) agencies would be an excellent source of both diesel and gasoline. Above-ground tanks would obviously be easier to access the goodies from.

for those of you that have diesels don't forget the "bio diesel" fuels (vegtable oil). So add all those fast food places around town to the list.

"...where to find fuel in a long-term emergency..."

I suspect that in a real long-term emergency those with fuel will know the value of it, and guard it. Guard it WELL. Think Mad Max/Road Warrior/Beyond Thunderdome. Farmers/ranchers in particular might shoot first and ask questions never. In the gas shortages of the early 70's and 80's there were fights ansdshootings at gas stations in Los Angeles, with lots of witnesses around. Out in the boonies, no witnesses, I would be really careful. Something to keep in mind as you break out the old syphon hose...

If this scenario is only for power outages and not weather related per se, I would also consider the local street dept. Some of the ones here have the bulk tanks.

School bus garages also have bulk tanks. As do some college campuses for their fleet cars.

Ask the farmer. If you only are going to put the fuel into your generator, etc. then simply ask. Most of the farmers I know will gladly let you take 2-3 gallons from a 5,000-10,000 bulk tank. Just remember to offer to provide compensation (apple pies work ) if you need the fuel that badly. BTW, since my family has said bulk tank on their farm, I know that the route driver usually fills it once per year, IIRC the tank holds 3,000 gallons, I know it is not much, but it also gets mostly used by mid-November. Just before Thanksgiving the tank is refueled and the additive added for the winter. The driver puts number 1 diesel (since it is lighter in viscosity) into the tank and because farm fuel is not considered "road fuel" the taxes are less.

In the rural counties of South Central Idaho I know a lot of the homes have propane bulk tanks around them. There is a demand for propane powered generators.

I concur though about stealing from some. I know several who would just shoot first and then bury you. "There's a lot of BLM ground around here, I doubt you'll be missed any time soon. By the time anyone notices, the coyotes have gotten you." I hear that said alot by some farmers, ranchers and some very independent rural families.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Stargazer

Hey guys ( and gals) I have been reading your stuff with interest. I cdan't think of any new sources for fuel unless you stock it your self. I stock several gallons of Coleman fuel, kerosene, gasoline, lamp oil( for my nice tin oil lamps to provide atmosphere for dinner) and various oils for the truck, chainsaw etc. But the one thing that I would love to do is be prepared to live without fuels and/or electricity (except firewood.)I used to live almost 9,000 feet up in the Rockies (Above Boulder Colorado)and electricity was very intermittent. I try hard not to depend on it any more. Trying to plan on finding a few more gallons of fuel seems very hard, depending on where you live and how long you plan to live this way. For me it seems easier to learn to live without fossil fuels and electricity. I don't live that way now obviously, but some day we may all have to. Lets hope someone implements better technology not dependant on oil soon. Keep smiling my friends. radtech

If it hits the fan hard enough, those supply points will be secured pretty quickly. Although bartering is always a possibility. I can't imagine that the types of locations you listed didn't have someone around when the last hurricane passed by your area.

And yeah, I can't imagine people wouldn't have been a little jumpy.

True, fuel is gold in a really bad situation and usually defended as such. That being said, I know the truck repair shop at our facility was abandonned during hurricane Rita. I also know train engines are left unattended on the tracks around here all the time. About four years ago two kids managed to get one moving.

I think a lot of potential fuel sources will be abandonned. Maybe not stationary tanks, but trains, ships and smaller repair shops and construction offices may be empty. The people working there would probably head home rather than defend their bosses merchandise.

Think of it as a thought exersize to think outside the box. Where can I find the resources I'll want? Many will be defended, but knowing where to look is the first step.

-Blast

If TSHTF, many fuel sources will be left unattended. Petro/chem barges for one, in their fleets, trains in their yards, etc.

Don't forget that solar panels can be "salvaged" from various sources.

That being the case, you just told the competition where to go for fuel

I actually pondered this before posting the information. Is it better to alert both friends and potential enemies or keep the knowledge to myself? I guess we'll find out the answer to that question if TSHTF...

-Blast

I'll keep everything crossed that it doesn't come to that. I'd hate to see you (or anyone else) turn up as coyote bait in the boonies...

build a moonshine still and use it in gas vehicles. Might void warranty but if worst comes to worst, so what.

"...build a moonshine still and use it in gas vehicles...

Waste moonshine in a vehicle? Are you nuts???

I'll throw in a couple more ideas off the top of my head.

Radio and cell phone transmitters may have generator backup. Most cell phone sites are probably battery-powered, though. Anyway, depending on the SHTF scenario, like EMP or a severe earthquake that topples the transmitters anyway, there could be unused diesel here.

How about the stand-by generators for commerical office buildings? Again, depending on the scenario, these buildings could be unoccupied and stay unoccupied, so the fuel for these generators would be unused. Like, after Katrina, I'm assuming that most of those office buildings downtown were just empty for quite a while. Imagine how long those buildings would've stayed empty if the city hadn't been pumped out so quickly.

QMC, USCG (ret); to be precise!!!!

The boss might defend the merchandise though. I'm not saying it's a horrible idea, just a risky one. Not to mention ethically dubious- I'd probably feel compelled to contact the person afterwards, apologize, and pay up. But I always too honest for my own good. :P

Easy to do with a manual choke and a carb, just open up the nozzles a little. With a fuel injector, much harder to do. You'll be stalling early and often. I looked into this a few years back, the data wasn't pretty.

The alternative is to locate the chip that controls your injector, learn it's language, get a spare, uncompile it and make the needed modifications to the ratios, and burn yourself a new one to keep as a spare. Easy.

Yeah, easy. *whimpers*

Waste moonshine in a vehicle? Are you nuts???

I didn't say that you couldn't drink it or use it in your alcohol stove. Why do you think I go by "hillbilly"? Actually, my principal here in Arkansas asked me about 2 months ago if we could develop a curriculum/project for the area to make ethanol as an alternative to regular crop products. When I told her that I could build a still to teach the kids how to make ethanol she dropped the idea quickly. However, I am going to experiment with crop residue this fall with the biology teacher to determine if you can get any usable product from wheat or rice straw. It should take more to make alcohol than say corn or grains but it might work.

Be sure to let us know how much "kick" it has...

Good topic Blast, kmat and Wildman 800. Lots of good advice from a lot of posters.

One question. Let's say the power is out and you find access to fuel in an underground tank. Is there a simple way to get the fuel out. What should I keep on hand to accomplish this.

One more thought (and maybe this should be a separate thread), what can we do to reduce the need for fuel in a SHTF scenario?

I was wondering this too. Anyone know of a good manually powered siphon pump system?

1. Bicycles along with bicycle trailers
2. Build homes that have natural cooling abilities (I've been looking at house designs from tropical areas and the 1800 for ideas there)
3. Store food that don't require refridge/freezers.
4. Cook in solar ovens (cheap stryofoam cooler and a sheet of plexiglass works amazingly well here in Texas).
5. Root cellars
6. Water cisterns to collect rain off roofs rather than hualing water from nearby lakes/rivers/pools.

-Blast

Most electric gas and diesel pumps (at stations) have a hand pump handle hiding behind the lower cover plates. Take the cover off, pull out the handle and connect it to the pump, turn away and load the gas into a vehicle or containers.

"...Take the cover off..."

Keep in mind that those covers are locked on, so you are gonna have to break something to get inside...

"...good manually powered siphon pump system..."

There are a bunch available. Black and Decker makes (or at least used to) a thing called a Jackrabbit Pump, a hand powered (crank) pump that works very well. There are also those that are powered by an electric (think battery) drill, mucho faster than hand pumping. But again, remember that the hatch to the fuel tank is going to be locked, so you have to start breaking stuff...

If you know of people who have what you may need, having some really viable trade goods could be a good idea.

For instance, remember back to Katrina when that outfit (the name is long gone) in NOLA was online and giving blow-by-blow accounts of what was going on? They had a diesel generator, fuel, food, water, etc. But they underestimated the toilet facilities, and apparently all the toilets in the area were backing up due to the high water.

I'll bet those guys would have traded some diesel fuel (at least in the beginning or near the end, when they got more) for a stack of 5-gallon plastic buckets, a load of sawdust and a cheap ($10) clip-on toilet seat.

Sometimes, when there's trouble, people need simple things that they just overlooked, like having no matches in the house during a snowstorm. Or apple pies. Or chocolate chip cookies.

Sue

As my wife, the former law enforcement dispatcher, used to say, at any "disaster," be it a monster multi-vehicle accident, train wreck, earthquake, bridge collapse, whatever, the first two things that need to be dispatched (after law enforcement/fire/ambulance) is tow trucks (you can move a lot of anything with tow trucks), and porta potties...

This is something along the lines of what I'm thinking as well. Not necessarily how to pump it out, but how to get it home. Assuming fuel is scarce/valuable, how do you plan on getting it safely from point A to B? It's hard to carry more than a few gallons at once by hand, and it's fairly obvious. On the other hand, using your vehicle can carry more, but then you may advertise that you're getting fuel from somewhere.

Any thoughts on how clandestine you can be?

-USNR, not saying his rank cuz too many darn chiefs in the room.